[Closed] Why I should believe?

This is something to read

Couldn't find any qualification for this writing sorry, maybe it's there somewhere.

Originally posted by w34z3l

Originally posted by buzzinace
Don't you think that Adam and Eve and the Serpent is not got strong mythological overtones??

In comparison to other creation accounts, I do not.

For example, consider the creation account according to Greek mythology.

"First Gaia (Earth) gives birth to Uranus (Heaven). First Uranus was supreme but he suppressed his children, and Gaia encouraged his son Cronos to castrate him. Cronos in turn devoured his own children, until his wife Rhea gave him a stone to eat in place of Zeus; the child Zeus was brought up in Crete, compelled his father to disgorge his siblings, and with them and other aid defeated Cronos and his Titans and cast them down into Tartarus." - The Oxford History of the Classical World

How about Chinese mythology taken from folk religion?

"We learn that Chaos was like a hen's egg. Neither Heaven nor Earth existed. From the egg P'an-ku was born, while of its heavy elements Earth was made and Sky from the light elements. P'an-ku is represented as a dwarf, clad in a bearskin or a cloak of leaves. For the 18,000 years the distance between Earth and Sky grew daily by ten feet, and P'an-ku grew at the same rate so that his body filled the gap. When he died, different parts of his body became various natural elements" - Anthony Christie - Professor of Oriental Art

In my opinion a talking serpent pales in comparison. And the bible later gives a reason why the serpent had the ability to talk; it was being controlled by the spirit creature Satan.

Notice also how these accounts do not specifically address the creation in any real depth. The bible, on the other hand, is very specific about the order in which the various stages of creation happened.

The creation account in Genesis is also supported by later events in the bible. In fact, without the events in the Garden of Eden, the bible would not be necessary. If you look back to earlier in this thread you will see I give scriptural reasons why the Garden of Eden should be considered a literal and not a figurative account. (page 2, 5th post)

I honestly don't see why they are any more mythological than the bible.
How the fuck was satan in heaven?? Why did god even create satan to begin with?? And if you read the the chapter about the creation of the earth it gives you the image that humans were created right after the earth was. Also humans were created before animals and plants right? so how can we have had plants and animals millions of years ago when Adam didn't come before 6k years ago? I'd really like you to explain this to me. If you do make it seem logical then I'd become a firm believer.

Originally posted by Ihufa
I honestly don't see why they are any more mythological than the bible.

I hear you. The difference is that, if true, the genesis account has strong implications regarding our situation today. The accounts I listed from Greek and Chinese mythology certainly make interesting fiction, but they are of little relevance to us.

The genesis account sets the theme for the entire bible, which is then developed in a logical and cohesive manner. The genesis account is functional, and entirely necessary if the rest of the bible is to have meaning. Mythology will fall apart when subject to heavy scrutiny, the genesis account does not. Even the more surreal aspects, (to our minds), such as a speaking serpent, or a "tree of knowledge", have logical explanations.

With so much mis-information around however, it isn't surprising people dismiss the book as myth without even a cursory glance.

Originally posted by Ihufa
How the fuck was satan in heaven?? Why did god even create satan to begin with??

An excellent question. And I will attempt to tie this in with the genesis account.

We can learn a little from Jesus' words in John 8:44 "and he [Satan] did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him"
We can deduce from this that originally Satan was created as a perfect spirit creature. He had free-will, just as all of us do.
However, this spirit creature decided to use his free will by challenging the sovereignty of God. What was his claim?
Satan insinuated that mankind only served God for selfish reasons. We can see this reflected in the account of Job. In particular Job 1:6-12 and Job 2:1-7.

Satan's first recorded action of challenging God's sovereignty happens in the Garden of Eden. He accuses God of lying; effectively telling Eve that God is holding back something good from them concerning the tree. What is his motive? He desires the worship of humans for himself which we can deduce from Matthew 4:8-11

The consequences of eating from the tree were made clear, Adam and Eve would die as a result. (Initially they would have lived forever). We can see from Romans 5:12 that this death would spread to their offspring, not dissimilar to a hereditary condition. Our bodies have the ability to renew themselves continuously; yet they eventually stop working and we die.

So why couldn't God just wipe out Adam, Eve, and Satan, and start over? Because the issue of God's sovereignty had been raised, and it needed to be resolved. Starting over would not bring a true resolution to the issue, it would simply avoid it. And from here, the first prophecy in the bible is uttered, found at Genesis 3:15 It makes reference to the temporary death of Jesus to atone for the sins of Adam, and the eventual permanent destruction of Satan. Hence, the theme for the overall bible is set, "the vindication of God's sovereignty".

I've addressed this as briefly as I can, but hopefully you get the idea that if the account in Genesis is indeed a myth, the entire bible is of little value or relevance to us.

Originally posted by Ihufa
And if you read the the chapter about the creation of the earth it gives you the image that humans were created right after the earth was.

As discussed previously in this thread, a creative day could be billions of years in length. The creation is broken down into separate days, and humans were created on the 6th day. There is no reason to assume that humans were created shortly after the earth (relatively speaking).

Originally posted by Ihufa
Also humans were created before animals and plants right? so how can we have had plants and animals millions of years ago when Adam didn't come before 6k years ago?.

According to the account God creates plants, trees, and vegetation on the third day. He doesn't begin the creation of creatures creatures until the fifth day, at which point he creates the creatures that live in the sea, and every type of winged creature. On the sixth day he finishes the creation of animals, shortly followed by the creation of humans. Even the fact that a creation happens on the same "day" as another doesn't mean there can't have been millions of years separating them.

The creation of Adam + Eve was the last of his creative works which according to bible chronology happened ~6k years ago.

EDIT - Still editing this post a little, I clicked post by accident. For the best understanding of this material it may be worth reading the scriptures in bold in a bible.

Originally posted by w34z3l
Text Wall

"No matter the truth, people see what they want to see" - Gossip girl

And yes I deny ever watching the show just a quote from facebook.

Are you creating all of these post's as opinion or fact?

Correct me if I am wrong but did you state our bodies stop working b/c of Adam and Eve's mistakes?

Originally posted by Satanic4
"No matter the truth, people see what they want to see" - Gossip girl

That's true of 95% of people, atheists and theists alike.

What of those 5% for whom the truth is what they want to see?

Given the nature of your participation in this thread (attempts to undermine rather than contribute), I have a feeling I know in which category you belong.

Originally posted by brobz
Are you creating all of these post's as opinion or fact?

I am attempting to represent accurately what the bible teaches on these matters, since it is so often misrepresented by Christians and non-Christians alike.

I'm also demonstrating wherever possible that science has not disproved the bible, and that the bible is scientifically, historically, and prophetically accurate.

Fact? Opinion? Decide for yourself.

Originally posted by brobz
Correct me if I am wrong but did you state our bodies stop working b/c of Adam and Eve's mistakes?

To quote Romans 5:12

"That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned"

Originally posted by w34z3l

Originally posted by Satanic4
"No matter the truth, people see what they want to see" - Gossip girl

That's true of 95% of people, atheists and theists alike.

What of those 5% for whom the truth is what they want to see?

Given the nature of your participation in this thread (attempts to undermine rather than contribute), I have a feeling I know in which category you belong.

You grew up with this stuff you've been brainwashed; its a parasite. But I believe you can grow out of it! Or you can continue to take a childs book where snakes talk to humans, and a divine spirit tells a mans daughters to rape their father...

"Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. Genesis 19:32-36"

Originally posted by Satanic4

You grew up with this stuff you've been brainwashed; its a parasite. But I believe you can grow out of it!

Firstly, I did not "grow up with this stuff". I was an agnostic atheist for the first 20 years of my life, before I began to research deeply into the question of our origins.

I have reached logical conclusions as a result of countless hours of research, and certainly have not been "brainwashed".

Originally posted by Satanic4

"Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. Genesis 19:32-36"

Now, here you make the grave assumption that because something is recorded in the bible, that it is condoned by the bible. It actually amuses me when people use accounts like this to "disprove the entire bible".

God condones neither incest nor drunkenness. (Leviticus 18:6, 7, 29; 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10) Lot actually deplored the “lawless deeds” of Sodom’s inhabitants. (2 Peter 2:6-8) The very fact that Lot’s daughters got him intoxicated suggests that they realized that he would not consent to having sexual relations with them while he was sober. But as aliens in the land, his daughters felt that this was the only way to prevent the extinction of Lot’s family. The account is in the Bible to reveal the relationship of the Moabites (through Moab) and the Ammonites (through Benammi) to Abraham’s descendants, the Israelites.

But thanks for posting this one. I much prefer meaningful contributions such as this. ♦

Originally posted by w34z3l

Originally posted by Satanic4

You grew up with this stuff you've been brainwashed; its a parasite. But I believe you can grow out of it!

Firstly, I did not "grow up with this stuff". I was an agnostic atheist for the first 20 years of my life, before I began to research deeply into the question of our origins.

I have reached logical conclusions as a result of countless hours of research, and certainly have not been "brainwashed".

Its ok; brainwashing can happen at anytime!

"Researched deeply into the question of our origins" By that you mean read the bible and ignore everything else?

Posting: scientifically, historically, and prophetically accurate again and again does not make it true.
Prophetically: List every prophet that has come true.
Historically: It was written after events happened about events so of course some of it is "historically" accurate.
Scientifically: hope this one is a joke; nothing is scientific about the bible or it would be in classrooms.

And ignoring fossil evidence that people are older then 6000 years is a bit funny when believing in a book which was written by man.

no matter what you say to a bible thumper it's hopeless

I can hardly beleive you actually beleive humans only die b/c of what Adam and Eve "did", seriously how does all life die away? because of Adam and Eve

2nd you made the a crazy comment on how the bible can be proven scientficaly? Noah's Ark? jesus turning water to wine? walking on water? creating life from nothing? rising from the dead? Yeah this stuff has all been proven.

the bible says god made stars also... "also"..obviously the author thought stars were just little diamonds hanging in the sky until real science proved that wrong

Science has and continues to prove religion wrong countless times and will continue to do so until the ignorant human race realizes we are all alone on this rock, It's been proven were like what the 3rd or 4th life cycle on this planet but somehow we think it was made for us

The bible is just abook filled with inaccurate unlogical events that only people could make up from a time where they understood almost nothing

But I am probably just an idiot who dosen't deserve to have an opnion and who is only undermining the thread and creating problems right? Because anybody that challenges a bible thumper has no idea wtaht they are talking about

Good-bye.

Originally posted by Satanic4

"Researched deeply into the question of our origins" By that you mean read the bible and ignore everything else?

No, I have considered a large variety of sources. Scientific journals, encyclopaedias, history papers/podcasts, even Darwin's own book. Focusing entirely on one source would be pointless......

Originally posted by Satanic4
Posting: scientifically, historically, and prophetically accurate again and again does not make it true.

Of course it doesn't, I just wanted to make sure you remembered those three things to help with your further analysis. And it worked like a charm.

Originally posted by Satanic4
Prophetically: List every prophet that has come true.

What here? Now? You realise it takes a very long time to consider all of bible prophecy?

Originally posted by Satanic4
Historically: It was written after events happened about events so of course some of it is "historically" accurate.

Great! We agree on that one then!

Originally posted by Satanic4
Scientifically: hope this one is a joke; nothing is scientific about the bible or it would be in classrooms.

Would it?

The bible makes no claims to be a scientific textbook, but when it does address matters of science it is accurate. To give 3 quick examples -

- The bible describes the earth as a sphere long before a time when people claimed it was still flat.
-It gives a brief description of the water cycle.
-The sanitation laws given to the Israelites inhibited the spread of disease.

Originally posted by Satanic4
And ignoring fossil evidence that people are older then 6000 years is a bit funny when believing in a book which was written by man.

I don't ignore "evidence", I actively research it and find myself questioning the authenticity of this evidence (see my previous posts.) It's not as if this evidence exists in particularly large amounts either.

Originally posted by brobz
no matter what you say to a bible thumper it's hopeless

Shrug, calling me names hardly furthers the objectivity of this discussion.

Originally posted by brobz
I can hardly beleive you actually beleive humans only die b/c of what Adam and Eve "did", seriously how does all life die away? because of Adam and Eve

Sure, but you've only heard part of it there. Doubt you care about the rest

Originally posted by brobz
2nd you made the a crazy comment on how the bible can be proven scientficaly?

Please read what I write, otherwise you waste both of our time. I said that the bible cannot be disproved with science, and that it is scientifically accurate. Nowhere did I say that it can be proven scientifically.

Originally posted by brobz
The bible is just abook filled with inaccurate unlogical events that only people could make up from a time where they understood almost nothing

It took you roughly 3 paragraphs to state this. But please qualify it with something......

Originally posted by brobz
But I am probably just an idiot who dosen't deserve to have an opnion and who is only undermining the thread and creating problems right? Because anybody that challenges a bible thumper has no idea wtaht they are talking about

Having spent probably too much of my life on the internet I find myself extremely attuned to subtle nuances in writing styles, from which I perceive a prevailing motive/attitude. If you are trying to troll/upset/goad me, chances are I will realise and respond accordingly. If you are attempting to further the discussion in an objective manner (regardless of your viewpoint), then of course your opinion is valid, and I'd be most interested to hear it.

lmao

Originally posted by w34z3l

Originally posted by Satanic4
Prophetically: List every prophet that has come true.

What here? Now? You realise it takes a very long time to consider all of bible prophecy?

Exactly they took the shotgun approach; not that hard to make generalized guesses about the future (with no time limit) they should have made a date like the rapture guy did. Pretty sure if this guy is so divine it could have been done.

Originally posted by w34z3l

Originally posted by Satanic4
Scientifically: hope this one is a joke; nothing is scientific about the bible or it would be in classrooms.

Would it?

The bible makes no claims to be a scientific textbook, but when it does address matters of science it is accurate. To give 3 quick examples -

- The bible describes the earth as a sphere long before a time when people claimed it was still flat.
-It gives a brief description of the water cycle.
-The sanitation laws given to the Israelites inhibited the spread of disease.

Science created evidence that the earth was round; and until it did all religious people where taught it was flat.

Description of the water cycle? lol its observable.

"The earliest identifiable flushing toilets have been found in the ruins of the palace of King Minos on the island of Crete, circa 1500 B.C. Rain water or water from cisterns traveled though conduits built into the wall to flush away the waste from a master bathroom presumably belonging to the monarch, as well as several other toilets located within palace walls."

People themselves have invented much more then just sanitation. Pretty sure they did not need any "divine help".

Originally posted by Satanic4
Exactly they took the shotgun approach; not that hard to make generalized guesses about the future

Naturally there is large amounts of very specific prophecy also. Many prophecies are so accurate that some scholars argue they must be forgeries, yet there are reasons why they cannot be.

Originally posted by Satanic4

People themselves have invented much more then just sanitation. Pretty sure they did not need any "divine help".

Yup. But think about what I said. I said the bible was scientifically accurate, not that it contained ground-breaking scientific theories.

For example, if the ancient Israelites been advised to make a poultice out of faeces to treat their wounds, we'd know there was a problem.

If god is all knowing and almighty then why is he struggling so hard with keeping the people he made himself to be the way he wants. He should've known that satan would turn out the way he did, but he still made him. And he's still letting him tempt people all the time. That makes no sense, he can kill him whenever he wants.

You're gonna say that everyone has a free will and so god can't control them, but if he wanted to.. well he could or else he isn't almighty. And he should also be able to predict their actions.

And isn't it wierd that god created a universe so insanely large with so many billions of systems similar to our solar system, and in the bible none of it is mentioned. He made an entire universe and is only looking at one tiny little dust flake. And the stars are not mentioned as being suns and it's not mentioned either that around the stars there's planets like our own. Actually it's not even mentioned that there's other planets around our own sun.

Also if you're leading a good humble life but you don't believe on god or you believe on something else, will you go to heaven?
If yes then there's no reason to believe in anything.
If no you're saying that billions of people deserve to spend eternity in hell. So which one is it

Thanks for answering my questions so well so far

I've rearranged the order slightly, to aid comprehension.

Originally posted by ihufa
He should've known that satan would turn out the way he did, but he still made him.

The same question could be posed regarding Adam and Eve; why would God create them if he could foresee they were destined for failure?

The answer is simply that God can make selective use of his foreknowledge. Just because he has the ability to see into the future does not mean he has to. (See illustration in spoiler)

The scriptures show on many occasions that God did not use his power of foreknowledge. In Genesis 22:12, after Abraham came seconds from sacrificing his son Isaac, God could say "Now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me" This entire exercise would have been pointless if God had chosen to use his power of foreknowledge.

The most compelling reason is that the scriptures refer to God as a God of love, and a "lover of righteousness and justice" (Psalm 33:5). Would it not be hypocritical for God to warn Adam and Eve against a specific sin while already knowing the bad outcome? Would it also not be remarkably foolish to create them anyway and stage a rerun of events he already knew would happen?

Hopefully you see how these things also apply to the creation of Satan.

Originally posted by ihufa
If god is all knowing and almighty then why is he struggling so hard with keeping the people he made himself to be the way he wants.

And, you actually touch upon the answer yourself.

Originally posted by ihufa
And he's still letting him [Satan] tempt people all the time. That makes no sense, he can kill him whenever he wants.

God is letting events unfold for the time being. But why would a loving God allow such a thing, effectively permitting all the suffering we see in this world?

Firstly I'd like to mention an important yet lesser-known bible truth. The scriptures refer to Satan as the god of this world.(2 corinthians 4:4) The bible states "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one" (1 John 5:19). We also only need to look again at the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness to see all the kingdoms of the earth were Satan's to give to whomever he pleased. (Matthew 4:8,9)

To find the real reason behind God's permission of suffering we once again must turn to the Genesis account. Hopefully you recall that here Satan questions God's sovereignty. Satan does not call in to question God's power. Even Satan knows that there is no limit to God's power. Rather, Satan questions God's right to rule. Satan implies that mankind would be better off without God's rulership. Adam and eve support this view via their actions, and thus also become rebels against God.

How could God teach all intelligent creatures that these rebels were wrong, and his way truly is best? Many might say that God should simply have destroyed the rebels and made a fresh start. But would this really have answered the question regarding God's right to rule? (See illustration in spoiler)

God has therefore allowed events to play out, allowing mankind to demonstrate how well they can survive without God's rulership and under the rulership of Satan. The results of such rulership are clearly evident; large-scale wars, food shortages, sickness, hatred, to name a few. However God promises that these troubled times will not continue indefinitely. Which leads onto your next question.....

Originally posted by ihufa
Also if you're leading a good humble life but you don't believe on god or you believe on something else, will you go to heaven?
If yes then there's no reason to believe in anything.
If no you're saying that billions of people deserve to spend eternity in hell. So which one is it

Let's begin by addressing the extremely prevalent falsehood, that good people go to heaven, and bad people go to hell.

Hell as a fiery place of torment is not one that is based on the bible. It comes from the Greek word hades and Hebrew word sheol. It simply means "the common grave of mankind". The bible makes it clear that "the dead are concious of nothing" and therefore most certainly are not suffering in any way. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10).

Also, think about it for a minute. We've described God as a "God of love", and "a lover of justice". Would eternal suffering in fiery torment ever be a just punishment for whatever finite amount of sins we can commit in one lifetime?

What about heaven? While the bible does indicate certain individuals will go to heaven, this is not the promise that is given to the vast majority of mankind. To understand the bible's hope for the future it helps to consider what God's original purpose for mankind was. In Genesis 1:27 God tells Adam and Eve, “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it". God's original purpose was for mankind to reside forever on the earth, not in heaven, and God still intends to fulfill that promise. (Psalms 37:10,11; Psalms 46:9, Isaiah 2:4; Isaiah 11:6-9 Isaiah 65:21-25; Revelation 11:18)

Perhaps you even recall from Jesus' sermon on the mount that he said "the meek will inherit the earth", not that they will go to heaven. Many Christians also say the lords prayer without understanding the full import of "thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven". (Compare Daniel 2:44)

Yes, the bible's promise for the future is everlasting life on paradise earth, as God originally intended for us. God promises to shortly remove the wicked from the earth and restore the earth to it's former condition.

As for "who" will claim this reward (which also seemed part of your question), it is of course for God alone to decide. The bible does however give guidelines for how to live your life in a manner pleasing to God. The bible invites us; "let anyone that wishes take life’s water free." (Revelation 21:17)

Originally posted by ihufa
And isn't it wierd that god created a universe so insanely large with so many billions of systems similar to our solar system, and in the bible none of it is mentioned.

It's true, this aspect of God's creation is not mentioned in detail, (perhaps not overly necessary). But it is mentioned. Isaiah 40:26 mentions the myriads of stars and the fact God knows them all even by name.

"by name" would indicate that the stars are some kind of spirit or creature, no? For it to have a name for god to know i don't see any other explanation.