Monkeymode: I like to move it move it

Originally posted by TobyCS
i thought the content in the video isn't anything i haven't seen in other videos and i'd like to maybe see more more complex hands vs regulars but otherwise the video was good

dont know what limits u play atm, but keep in mind this is a lowstakes series. u wont hear much new stuff if u play nl200 probably

but yeah, there will also some live play parts, maybe we get into some "complex" spots ....

@ live game video: im just not sure when we enter cheating-territory. i mean if i tell vonki to take action A and she does exactly that, are we cheating cuz "i play" her account?! what if i ask "what line do u think is best on street x" and vonki answers "line B cuz .... " and i reply "hm, i suggest u take line D, cuz .... " and we win .... or what if we just discuss a spot together and through our discussion, find the max ev line vs villain which none of us alone would have come up with ?!

after recent events in online poker, i will be very careful now.

what's your opinion on dual live commentary in a vid?

does pokerstrategy have an official opinion about it?

SAUCE ON THIS BITCH PLZ ♠_evil:

I personally have no problem with live play sweat sessions where you discuss spots, but I know a few people who do. Maybe to get around this but still do live play sessions you should just watch and after a hand is finished discuss it?

Originally posted by TwiceT
@ live game video: im just not sure when we enter cheating-territory. i mean if i tell vonki to take action A and she does exactly that, are we cheating cuz "i play" her account?! what if i ask "what line do u think is best on street x" and vonki answers "line B cuz .... " and i reply "hm, i suggest u take line D, cuz .... " and we win .... or what if we just discuss a spot together and through our discussion, find the max ev line vs villain which none of us alone would have come up with ?!

after recent events in online poker, i will be very careful now.

what's your opinion on dual live commentary in a vid?

Well yeah looks like you are pseudo-using her account so to speak. Looks like you are entering the ethics world, I'm not really familiar with that :P. But it all depends what she//the student wants. If it is inevitable one does a live sweat, I mostly ask he or she to just play and afterwards I will ask. For me I treat it the same as watching a video together because I just feel doing ''do A on table 1, do B on table 2'' is not benefiting the student.

In terms of a video published on a public website where other users can learn from it, this may be the other way around but what's the use of the the student then? To answer that, I think the only benefit is then creating discussion as the student must,should,is forced to ask questions then.

That sums up dual live commentary concerning teacher/coach relation. If you have 2 coaches doing a live commentary, I ♥ it because if you put 2 guys who have completely different games and they agree to disagree a lot. You get to see both arguments from both POV and create an own conclusion

@livesweat discussion

I've decided not to do any of these coachings too, neither privately or in a video. Theres the cheating discussion - which does have its merit - but also, honestly, I think it's not a very good way of coaching either anyway... I find there's nothing that you cant work on better by another method. Gotta work on small preflop pots and spots? Video! for more time to discuss. Gotta zone in on a certain situation? Use HEM filters! Gotta work on big pots in general? HEM hand replayer!
And then you don't have to be worried about cheating either

Originally posted by Fongie
@livesweat discussion

I've decided not to do any of these coachings too, neither privately or in a video. Theres the cheating discussion - which does have its merit - but also, honestly, I think it's not a very good way of coaching either anyway... I find there's nothing that you cant work on better by another method. Gotta work on small preflop pots and spots? Video! for more time to discuss. Gotta zone in on a certain situation? Use HEM filters! Gotta work on big pots in general? HEM hand replayer!
And then you don't have to be worried about cheating either
one merit of live sweats is that, u can go through game dynamics like how one continually adjust with one's image during a session, or vs a player etc.

u still get dynamics with recorded videos too, i think if you're going to be making decisions for vonki then its not very fair but if you are going to discuss hands after she has made them then it's fine imo. obv check with party because i know ftp didn't allow it

Originally posted by TobyCS
u still get dynamics with recorded videos too, i think if you're going to be making decisions for vonki then its not very fair but if you are going to discuss hands after she has made them then it's fine imo. obv check with party because i know ftp didn't allow it

u get to discuss dynamics for sure but u aren't able to guide the whole process that is always on going and changing. it's like trying to sharpen an intuition, one can feel/learn way better in an actual scenario than a video because e.g. student 3b alot then villian adjust to 4b alot then student adjust by not 3b less.
sure the coach could only correct the 1 immediate consequence e.g. coach doesnt think 3b less is better but think's 5b light is better. but what happen's when villian adapt to 5b light in a certain way, what is the coach's plan? in a video we can't find out because we would have never gotten to that hypothetical "stage" but in live sweats we could.

anyway i certainly do think it's sort of "cheating", but it's not something that can be stopped anyway, and therefore if it cannot be stopped, it cannot be classified as cheating, at least on paper.

Originally posted by supeyrio

Originally posted by TobyCS
u still get dynamics with recorded videos too, i think if you're going to be making decisions for vonki then its not very fair but if you are going to discuss hands after she has made them then it's fine imo. obv check with party because i know ftp didn't allow it

u get to discuss dynamics for sure but u aren't able to guide the whole process that is always on going and changing. it's like trying to sharpen an intuition, one can feel/learn way better in an actual scenario than a video because e.g. student 3b alot then villian adjust to 4b alot then student adjust by not 3b less.
sure the coach could only correct the 1 immediate consequence e.g. coach doesnt think 3b less is better but think's 5b light is better. but what happen's when villian adapt to 5b light in a certain way, what is the coach's plan? in a video we can't find out because we would have never gotten to that hypothetical "stage" but in live sweats we could.

anyway i certainly do think it's sort of "cheating", but it's not something that can be stopped anyway, and therefore if it cannot be stopped, it cannot be classified as cheating, at least on paper.

yep i do agree with you, but good coaches also do make those what if scenarios anyway. e.g. what if the river was an ace instead, what if he raised the turn, etc.

Originally posted by TobyCS

Originally posted by supeyrio

Originally posted by TobyCS
u still get dynamics with recorded videos too, i think if you're going to be making decisions for vonki then its not very fair but if you are going to discuss hands after she has made them then it's fine imo. obv check with party because i know ftp didn't allow it

u get to discuss dynamics for sure but u aren't able to guide the whole process that is always on going and changing. it's like trying to sharpen an intuition, one can feel/learn way better in an actual scenario than a video because e.g. student 3b alot then villian adjust to 4b alot then student adjust by not 3b less.
sure the coach could only correct the 1 immediate consequence e.g. coach doesnt think 3b less is better but think's 5b light is better. but what happen's when villian adapt to 5b light in a certain way, what is the coach's plan? in a video we can't find out because we would have never gotten to that hypothetical "stage" but in live sweats we could.

anyway i certainly do think it's sort of "cheating", but it's not something that can be stopped anyway, and therefore if it cannot be stopped, it cannot be classified as cheating, at least on paper.

yep i do agree with you, but good coaches also do make those what if scenarios anyway. e.g. what if the river was an ace instead, what if he raised the turn, etc.
yes, thats 1 step ahead. what about 2, or 3?
also u mentioned good coaches, but for a coaching to be successful, we need to consider the student too
that said, i like what a video can offer, as well as live sweat. i would definitely want to have both for comprehensiveness sake

let's keep the question about "cheating" aside - i will just ask ps about their view on it.

about live sweat session in coachings or study groups, my opinion:

1) if u wanna break down math in certain spots or wanna deeply analyse your or your opponents' stats, HEM analysis is the way to go. [for advanced plrs usually]

2) if u wanna learn the basics fast and getting into slightly advanced concepts without going into them deeeeeply, discussing pre recorded sessions with your coach/or study group

3) if u wanna go beyond "standard" knowledge, i think u will get the most out of a live sweat session together with another strong plr. reason bening, strong plrs on higher limits have the basics down anyway. they know what advantages/disadvantages different lines have and they know the basic maths behind it. they already developed their own game and have hundrets of thousands of hands experience. what rly makes the difference, when most ppl on your table got the basics, is to find ways to exploit their games/tendencies the most.
also, imo its way easier to develop new ideas in one's game when talking to other ppl while playing live. all this doesnt need to be cheating since all hands can be discussed after the sd and mostly live played hands are just starting points for discussions. the actual hand doesnt matter soooo much. the "what if ... " loops are what makes those live sweats interesting.

u might ask whats the difference between a review or a recorded session, u can also ask those questions when doing that ... thats correct, but then u are only focusing on the hand way more in a vacuum. there is ofc way more to it. metagame overall, session history, timings, chatboxes, momentum (in hu this almost impossible to grasp aspect makes the differenc so so often) level 3 and 4 etc etc

long story short:
ofc i can only speak for myself, but i have some experience. and for me, live playing together with strong plrs is by far (!) the best way to improve. its not even close for me.
(im not saying hem session alone is not worth the work, but it doesnt boost my skill as much)

very good standpoints, sir!

as the 3rd person in the video its hard to follow if they are talking 2 person while one of them is playing. as said, making a video for ps

in a coachingsession (1on1) its a nonstandard line to have a sweatsession or a sessionreview. it depends on which level the player is.

for me if im watching a trainingvid, i suggest A. 1 player/livesession or B. 2 players/sessionreview

The video is nice, I think you talk about a lot of interesting stuff for players on NL25/NL50 to start getting more creative.

While your voice is annoying because of the quality, vonki's sweet voice totally makes up for it ;).

7 to go, someone wake Jb up!

Originally posted by fruktpuff
7 to go, someone wake Jb up!

You woke me up just for that?? ♠_o:

In my coaching sessions with TT I have found that reviewing recorded sessions is much better for me. When we have done live coaching/cheating ( ), I have just found it really hard to concentrate on the current action whilst TT was talking in depth about a previous hand. I usually get more out of these sessions when I listen back to my recording of them afterwards. I'm sure this is because of my lack of experience. My point is that I think it is hard for a less experienced player to contribute much to a live coaching at the time, although it is very beneficial afterwards. If I were in Vonki's position during a live session I would be reduced to a series of 'OK's, 'errrr',s and 'maybe's, which probably wouldn't make for great viewing. Perhaps TT's machine gun speed analysis would make up for it, but I'm not entirely sure.

I'm in the same boat - I always recorded and reviewed my coaching sessions after coz I'm very in the game when I play and I suck at multitasking so it was very hard to listen to someone elses thoughts during play, not to mention contributing my own thoughts etc

I tend to feel the same than static and JB regarding live sweat. Hard to discuss the hand and be focus on other decisions.

But there is still something more than a recorded video I think.
Like on a flop xxx we decide to do y where I would have done z then it is more profitable bc not only I know that I should do y but I also get to play it and see whats going on on later streets.

Would be good to hear Vonki's opinion on this.

Originally posted by TwiceT
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does pokerstrategy have an official opinion about it?

Have asked Education to post today to give feedback.

Originally posted by Dublimax
I tend to feel the same than static and JB regarding live sweat. Hard to discuss the hand and be focus on other decisions.

But there is still something more than a recorded video I think.
Like on a flop xxx we decide to do y where I would have done z then it is more profitable bc not only I know that I should do y but I also get to play it and see whats going on on later streets.

Would be good to hear Vonki's opinion on this.

Sorry for not having replied earlier, been away.

After reading everything through just now I'm actually split. I absolutely agree that it's harder to make a video (and listen to what the other person is saying whilst keeping track of what happens on the table etc) but let's not forget I am probably way way better at multitasking!

nah but seriously though I agree with dublimax, there is much more to it then just a prerecorded video. Even if I was to record a video just 1 hour before the sessionreview (as was the case with the last video) I would have forgotten alot about table dynamics and why I felt it was a good idea to do x and y.

I do also tend to think about everything more actively if I have someone watching. Things that I have learnt, but yet not started using. Or stuff that I don't think of often but really should. I just think it's overall easier and better to question and my own game the whole time during a live-session aswell as having TwiceT discuss it with me. I don't know.

If TwiceT, PS, or whoever may decide we shouldn't be doing live-sessions though then I am fine with doing a session review aswell of course.

@ toby: yea, well if you were to learn alot new in a NL25 video then I'd def be questioning what you're doing at NL100

Thanks for all the replies folks, and we (duh, TwiceT) managed to fuck up a thing or two for the first videos and we (duh, me) have been instructed by one of the office fellas on how to not fuck it up from part 3 and onwards. ♦ ghihi

Live-session or not, I am very much looking forward to recording the next videos