yee, maybe not 40% less and BM and PNO will not be better ... but i want to safe current TAF program please ♦
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You all who ask for old system - do you understand that TAF is not made to "give away free money to people for nothing", but instead to give you some of RAKE your invited people made? 
10 dollars for 2-3 usd of rake doesnt make that much sense.
But about people we have invited already, I would really like if we could get revenue from THEIR refferals. I for example invited everyone I could, so now I wont get many new people who I know personally etc.
I also got one idea: what about giving us option to PAY maybe 10€ for any old refs we already have, to activate our revenue from THEIR refs? I think it would be balanced... Or maybe just put our money from them to negative number, so we will not get FIRST 10€ from them. Just please, dont permanently make our old people (who we often know personally) useless refs. Thanks for reading.
Originally posted by rastauy
THAT IMPROVEMENTS ARE TALKING ABOUT????I promoted PS for years and brought thousands of players, as you can not see much of those i dont know but many have passed the 5k SP.
I think I have experience in the subject and I think they are killing us!In my referrals that have obtained the initial $50 less than 25% have passed the 100 SP, so for me as referrer are killing me!
Directly're not going to pay for 75% of those who bring, and I'll pay the same for the others ... we all know that passing the 5k SP are scarce.For the first time I am considering myself to promote rooms ...
Years ago I ask to put a filter to search in the list of friends or a filter to sort and nothing and now this ...
Hey rastauy,
Indeed there will be cases where the new system is worse than the old one - and you seem to be one of them.
The point is: the old system in your case might have been great for you - but not so much for us.
100 StrategyPoints is $20 Rake at William Hill and ~$30 Rake at PartyPoker.
From this rake, we just get a share. And had to pay you the TaF + the $50 roll.
If just 25% of your referrers got even these 100 SP - then we made a heavy loss on these 75%. We would only have made up for that loss on the remaining 25% are really active - and if this is the case, then again the new system would have been good for you.
In a nutshell:
If your revenues would have been hit hard, this means that you probably were a referer we lost a lot of money on.
Best,
Lutz
Originally posted by Xantos
Originally posted by rastauy
THAT IMPROVEMENTS ARE TALKING ABOUT????I promoted PS for years and brought thousands of players, as you can not see much of those i dont know but many have passed the 5k SP.
I think I have experience in the subject and I think they are killing us!In my referrals that have obtained the initial $50 less than 25% have passed the 100 SP, so for me as referrer are killing me!
Directly're not going to pay for 75% of those who bring, and I'll pay the same for the others ... we all know that passing the 5k SP are scarce.For the first time I am considering myself to promote rooms ...
Years ago I ask to put a filter to search in the list of friends or a filter to sort and nothing and now this ...
Hey rastauy,
Indeed there will be cases where the new system is worse than the old one - and you seem to be one of them.
The point is: the old system in your case might have been great for you - but not so much for us.
100 StrategyPoints is $20 Rake at William Hill and ~$30 Rake at PartyPoker.
From this rake, we just get a share. And had to pay you the TaF + the $50 roll.If just 25% of your referrers got even these 100 SP - then we made a heavy loss on these 75%. We would only have made up for that loss on the remaining 25% are really active - and if this is the case, then again the new system would have been good for you.
In a nutshell:
If your revenues would have been hit hard, this means that you probably were a referer we lost a lot of money on.Best,
Lutz
If you lost money with my referrals is because you failed to make them play enough to get the necessary gains.
Do not advertise this change as an improvement because IT IS NOT!
Simply do this because you want we bring experienced players and not have to train them from scratch.
Originally posted by darkprice
It's an improvement for most people.
Can you please explain how is it that this is an improvement for most people? Are you part of the PS team or u just dont know what u are talking about.
Sorry to hear the "good" news about the changes in the TAF system. From now on i do not make any efforts to promote a thing about PS.
And yeah... i seriously doubt you (P.S.) lost money because of some refferer. You got it all calculated well. But dont worry, it is not you... it is all over the world... some people call it "Greed" !!
Originally posted by darkprice
Originally posted by Xantos
Hey darkprice,I don't think you have been punished - because as an active recruiter, you gained a lot of experience on what makes people sign up at PokerStrategy.com, what questions they have etc.pp.
Of course I agree that from your perspective, this would be nice - but from ours, it would be very expensive and we would not really have an upside. It's like if you buy a car, and then half a year later it's cheaper: you might think: "aw, if I just had waited!" - but you probably don't expect that the dealer reimburses you the difference
The old system was designed to give you quick returns with the 15 SP tier. For the players you brought in the past, you got this upside.Best,
LutzYeah I've gained experience but I've also started to drain out my market.
And why would it not be an upside for you that we get revenue share from people we already recruited when it seems to be an upside if we would recruit them now instead? You make it sound like this new update is horrible for you.
This is not like your car example. It's more like "Oh, we found this problem with the break system. We will fix this for all cars sold from now on but not the once we already sold. So be careful!".
I just can't see why it would be so horrible for you to let us earn money when someone we recruited years ago starts buying subscriptions or recruiting players them self when it's not a problem with players we recruit from now on?
It's not like I'm asking you to give us all the money we could have gotten if this system was there from the beginning.
I still want to know why this would be so horrible for PokerStrategy. Am I the only one who think it's strange that you can't allow us to get revenue from people we already recruiter from the day the changes apply (revenue from what they earn/spend from that day on, not before)?
Hey darkprice,
I'll give you an extreme comparison:
Imagine we would in the past have given you $1 per sign-up - and in the future, $1,000 per guy reaching 30k SP.
If we changed the system and also would give you the new reward for all people, we would essentially pay you fully double.
The new system is ...
(a) overall better (so it's already pretty expensive!)
(b) especially better in the long run
So giving you more for players you already brought in the past would be a huge cost to us without a real upside for us.
Hope you understand that position.
Best,
Lutz
Originally posted by Xantos
So giving you more for players you already brought in the past would be a huge cost to us without a real upside for us.
Hope you understand that position.
Best,
Lutz
The upside for you is that you get happier members and help some of them boost their bankroll even more so they can pay more rake and actually make this even more profitable for you. Can't see why it would be such a huge cost for you? They still would have to make a purchase and so on, this would only mean you earn a few % less from selling status updates and so on.
I'm not asking you to change the payout tire for collecting SP, just the parts where you actually get 10% of what they earn from now on and from what they buy...
Hey darkprice,
with that logic, you could also say that any monetary gift to any member would be profitable for us, as they would be happier & would get a boost to their bankroll.
You have to see that our margins on free50 players are really thin.
Just look at the simple calculus:
• A guy gets his $50 & generates 20 StrategyPoints.
• His referrer earned $10 in the past.
• 20 StrategyPoints = ~$5 rake
• $50 + $10 = $60 cost to us
-> loss on many players.
Of course this is set off by profits on other players who play a lot - but the overall margin still was very small.
Thus, if we now pay double for these players:
First, we paid the expensive $10 for just a few $ of rake.
Now, the referrers would also get the upside of all the improvements.
I don't think that would be fair - and to be honest: it would be much, much too expensive.
If you still don't believe me, I suggest you to calculate it through for the guys you brought us:
• calculate -$50 for everyone who got the free $50
• calculate -$X for the TaF costs you earned
• compare it with the StrategyPoints / 4
Best,
Lutz
Another small example:
A car dealer makes promotions.
This year, he gave an iPod on top of a car sold.
Next year, he gives an iPad 2 on top of a car sold.
You bought a car this year, getting you an iPod extra.
Now, the dealer announces the new deal.
Do you expect to also get the iPad 2?
Analogy to our system:
In the past, you profited from the extremely early 15 StrategyPoint tier, on which in isolation, we lost a lot of money.
In the future, you have instead the higher tiers and the 10% for sub-affilation.
Do you expect to get both?
Originally posted by Xantos
If you still don't believe me, I suggest you to calculate it through for the guys you brought us:
• calculate -$50 for everyone who got the free $50
• calculate -$X for the TaF costs you earned
• compare it with the StrategyPoints / 4Best,
Lutz
Ok
$50 starting capital received 125
What I earned: $1760
Cost for you: $8060
SP from my "friends" + my self: 36 000+ (can't see how much they got when they reach 5000)
36000+/4 = 9000+
8010 < 9000+
I don't expect any iPads. I don't expect that the new tier should be applied on old members. I expect 10% for sub-affiliation as a thank you for spreading the word about our site getting us more members that buy status upgrades and invite their friends. Just as you are doing it from the 1st of December.
I seriously don't get it why the 10% can't apply for the old ones also. I wont be given anything as long as they don't buy an upgrade or invite new friends using the new system?
Does this mean this new system also is "crappy" for you?
Oh yes, if we would earn 100% of the gross rake, that would be awesome 
But:
All Bonus Costs + Poker Room Expenses (Software, Customer Service) + Poker Room Profits + Our Revenues == Gross Rake.
So yes, our costs were < the gross rake.
But most probably > our real revenues from your players.
And from our revenues, we also have to pay other costs, such as coachings, videos, our software etc.pp.
And that's the core problem: because we paid so much for players that generated just a few SP, we had a very low margin on Tell-A-Friend players.
That's why it's just economically not possible to apply the upsides of the new system to old players.
The new system is better for us than the old, because it sets better incentives.
But the new system also is better for the average referrer.
The new system is worse for referrers who brought in many players who reached the 15 SP tier, but rarely more. On this type of players & referrers, we lost a lot of money.
Bu it's still bad for you?
So bad that you can't let us get those 10% from old players?
Hey darkprice,
Short form: no, the 10% sub-affiliation will not count for players you brought before December 6.
Long form incl. reasons: see all my posts above.
Best,
Lutz
A boxing ring for the 2 of ye above i reckon
Xantos i have 2 friends i want to refer but u just said above it is the 6th of December that the changes come in.I thought it wast the 4th no?
Can you clarify that for me please so i can refer them after the proper date.
Thanks,
Ian
Originally posted by 1984ioc
A boxing ring for the 2 of ye above i reckon
Xantos i have 2 friends i want to refer but u just said above it is the 6th of December that the changes come in.I thought it wast the 4th no?Can you clarify that for me please so i can refer them after the proper date.
Thanks,
Ian
Hi Ian,
The new TAF scheme starts on the 6th of December for certain.
Best regards,
Gary