$22+2 6mx, AJo, bubble, vs fishy type

Hey!

I actually prefer donking in this scenario. But what do you think of donking like 6-7 hundred to induce an outright shove from villain? With this pot he might feel that he doesn't gain enough by shoving, esp that we bet so small compared to pot. I might be wrong here, but I'd probably donk bigger/call.

As played, I'm not a big fan of shoving after his clickback. But I'm not a big fan of calling either, there are a lot of ugly turns. I'm really unsure. We can't fold though. I'd be tempted to click it back sometimes

I like the idea of checking turn as played, we look pretty weak to him I think. When he pots it I'd say we are ahead most of the time. There are fish who get scared on that turn but I'd say it's a good call (well, shove, but technically it's the same).

Cheers, sir!

I think the downside of donking big is that he won't think he has feQ vs our (more pot committed) flop range. Since we want to induce, donking smallish looks weaker and there is more room for him to raise/fold if we donk/shove.

Agree with your thoughts on donking big - if we'd be donking, i`m definitely making it ~1/2pot or slightly below, otherwise it just looks too strong and would virtually eliminate the better part of his bluffing range (ALTHOUGH the flop is not that wet and it could still look bluffy if you donk big)

I personally prefer c/shove in this spot as I`m the one putting the pressure on, but it would definitely depend on what my feeling for the villain is, based on how he has been playing so far. If i feel he's capable of bluffing enough I`m definitely going to try and hook him for all his chips with TPTK on the flop.

I think his range is constituted by more bluff combos/ weaker pairs than sets/2pairs so I guess I`m not really folding turn against this villain and definitely c/calling to allow to continue bluffing once he got the initiative on the flop.

im a bit confused with your logic tim. you dont want to ship pre because you think hes not loose enough to make it profitable, but you are happy to donk to induce on a pretty dry flop with just TPTK. wouldnt the same logic apply post-flop?

my thinking is snap jam pre, its a semi-bluff ship. he might r/c 1 or 2 worse combos, but picking up the pot pre-flop has a lot of value on the bubble and playing AJ oop vs an aggro player 20bbs deep doesnt sound very fun to me. he can put a lot of pressure on you if he knows some basic hand reading.

as played, i would just c/c down. if you plan on donk/calling it looks weird on this board, would he really bluff jam complete air in this spot? if you donk to get value from flat calls then it starts looking better, but its more like a donk/fold then a donk to induce IMO. i think i would just let him cbet and go from there.

Originally posted by lessthanthreee
im a bit confused with your logic tim. you dont want to ship pre because you think hes not loose enough to make it profitable, but you are happy to donk to induce on a pretty dry flop with just TPTK. wouldnt the same logic apply post-flop?

my thinking is snap jam pre, its a semi-bluff ship. he might r/c 1 or 2 worse combos, but picking up the pot pre-flop has a lot of value on the bubble and playing AJ oop vs an aggro player 20bbs deep doesnt sound very fun to me. he can put a lot of pressure on you if he knows some basic hand reading.

as played, i would just c/c down. if you plan on donk/calling it looks weird on this board, would he really bluff jam complete air in this spot? if you donk to get value from flat calls then it starts looking better, but its more like a donk/fold then a donk to induce IMO. i think i would just let him cbet and go from there.

Okay, here's my thinking. Our hand doesn't do well against the part of his range which he raise/calls pre so I think 3b shipping against him is just bad. (it seems to be trivially bad in Wizz if he open raise 20% and calls off with 10%, and remains bad if he's only calling 5%; b/e if he calls only 3%). We've no reason to believe he is opening wider than that given his stats.

But, we get good odds and we suspect he is bad/aggressive. So folding seems overly nitty to me. I don't hate it, but I think it's likely worse than calling.

As to post flop, I definitely think there is a useful discussion about which is the best line. And I'm willing to accept you may be right that ch/c is better than donking, as a way of inducing from his apparent aggressive tendencies.

However, what I want to be clear on is whether you think we should ever be folding our hand post-flop given the board, vs this guy? I can't imagine donk/folding tptk ever being a realistic option here.

last question: if you had JJ in this spot (and for whatever reason just called pre) would you also ch/c down? or ch/R the flop? (is there any difference between the two hands?)

Thanks

guess flat is fine if thats what wiz says with those ranges.

i think if you choose to donk you reduce his bluffs a lot, because its such a bad board for him to bluff on. he knows he cant rep anything. i would never fold post. difference between AJ and JJ isnt big vs him.

your logic pre looks good , my thinking post is to maximize his bluffs and i think c/c on this flop will do that . you could even c/c and lead the turn for value or to induce. lead flop doesnt look bad, but i think he just folds a lot. which is why i said originally that it would probably be a bet/fold because i dont see him bluff raising here (maybe hes just spewy and bluff raises every donk, then its a genious donk).

V helpful, thanks.