badugi issues

Originally posted by adasko99 I was just gonna ask if anyone knows what's the optimal minimum bluff-catching (...)

• How many cards did he draw first and second draw?
• He always putted pressure, or just checked back?

That like in all the poker questions - depends. Against a total unknown, I would take the lead (1/2/3 Draw) with any 236x in that spot and I would c/c with a good seven if I suspect a snow. But normally many players will value bet there good 3-card hands in that spot, so you will not see many good players bluffing there.

I never followed much opining ranges, because that depends a lot on the table image. Some hands I would open-raise in some tables others I would fold them right away. The best advice I can give you is:

• Take Notes those you open-raise with a bad badugi in the early positions
• Don't peel to much, like in Stud you make money by folding (against a made Badugi)
• Value bet your good 3-card hands (*)

(*) (...) don't check then around. Many players will check in spots like this: Second Draw: Hero Draw 1, Villain Draw 1 - Hero check's and Villain checks. Okay you know everything can happen in the last draw, but you shouldn't be giving free changes... you will end up losing with good 3-card hands to bad King to Jack Badugi's.

Also, learn when you should c/r when you think you have a better 3-card hand. For example:
First Draw: Hero Draw 2, Villain Draw 1 - Hero checks, Villain Bets, Hero Raises ; Then you take the lead and try to improve or win in the last draw with a better 3-card hand.

Common snow spots:

SilaSoNi ($ 573.50 in chips)
tanya1604 ($ 216 in chips)
tanya1604: small blind is $ 5
SilaSoNi: big blind is $ 10

DEAL

tanya1604: up $ 10 to $ 20
SilaSoNi: call $ 10

FIRST DRAW

SilaSoNi: discards 1 card
tanya1604: discards 2 cards
SilaSoNi: bet $ 10
tanya1604: up $ 10 to $ 20
SilaSoNi: calls $ 10

SECOND DRAW

tanya1604: PAT
SilaSoNi: discards 1 card
tanya1604: bet $ 20
SilaSoNi: calls $ 20

THIRD DRAW

tanya1604: PAT
SilaSoNi: discards 1 card
tanya1604: bet $ 20
SilaSoNi: calls $ 20

SHOW DOWN

tanya1604: shows [6s 3h 8s 5s]
SilaSoNi: shows [6c 2s 3s 5h]
SilaSoNi received $ 159.50 in the pot

tanya1604, was trying to make his OPP think she had a bad badugi but was enough to win. SilaSoni had a good 3-card hand that didn't want to fold, but my had a read on tanya about if she check's or bets in that spot with bad badugis. 90% of the players would check in that spot with a bad badugi.

thanks a lot for your advice

How many cards did he draw first and second draw?
He always putted pressure, or just checked back?

i was hoping for a general answer but yeah, i understand what you mean by "it depends" ♦

Also, learn when you should c/r when you think you have a better 3-card hand

i will do at the moment i only know how to try to make villains break weak badugis when i'm holding a monster TRI

(...)at the moment i only know how to try to make villains break weak badugis when i'm holding a monster TRI

Triple Draw is very different from Badugi. People will not break hands most of the times, most players don't even break when they know they are beaten. They will call you and maybe fold river.

If you are talking about heads-up you can almost forget it. They will only break if you play with your passive image. What you can make if do a bluff with a bad badugi representing a good one.

I remember three months ago, a russian players decided to take a shoot at 40-80 USD and he was playing money-scared 4-handed with OPTIMUS9RIME and the Russian capped first draw and OPTIMUS draw 1 and cap again against the Russian, the Russian discards 1 and OPTIMUS pated Qxxx. This play don't normally work.

right i see , thanks

I'm currently reading Ken Lo's Mixed Games book and there is something I'd like to ask about.

Its a stupid question by the way

Drawing Considerations, example on page 54:

starting hand is A♥: 3♦: 5♣: 5♠: and you discard / 5♠:

current hand is A♥: 3♦: 5♣: 2♣:

now we have to drawing options to proceed with:
1) A♥: 3♦: 5♣: / 2♣: = that gives us a weaker TRI but more Badugi outs (10)
2) A♥: 3♦: 2♣: / 5♣: = that gives us a nut TRI but one less Badugi outs (9)

So in general i kind of get it.
I was just wondering if there is some kind of way of INSTANTLY recognizing the availability of those two types of discarding routes?

Is there like a quick rule or something maybe?

It must have something to do with previous discards right?

Maybe something like:
"if you discard 2 cards of the same rank ( 5♣: 5♠: ) - you always have 1 less Badugi outs?
"if you discard 3 cards of the same rank ( 5♣: 5♠: 5♦: ) - you always have 2 less Badugi outs?

can i ignore the ranks and just concentrate on how many cards of each suit i've discarded?

better tri is better tri. its an interesting idea to keep A♥: 3♦: 5♣: instead of A♥: 3♦: 2♣: in your case, but you're not that often hitting a badugi that it's worth to draw with weaker tri.

what limits do you play?
in general on the lowest limits you dont need to make many thoughts about bluffcatching. just play valuepoker!

my opinion: bluffcatching without reads is not such a good idea. first, you should give your opponents credit.

i dont understand your question considering discarding 5's. your discarding a 5 because you're allready holding another 5 or a better card of the same colour, so you wont lose a badugi-out. as you sad, you have to count the colours of cards you discarded.

I think you should apply all that strategy you see on Ken Lo's book when you are playing full table, playing a TAG thinking strategy based on mathematics and notes, but heads-up you can forget most of the things.

Heads-up the more aggressive player wins 90% of the times. The other 10% is when his running bad in cards. If you start applying to much mathematics playing heads-up against a aggressive opponent he will destroy you. I can tell you that I'm a good player short-handed because I play super aggressive, I play with the called six-sense. If I'm playing against a nit I play super aggressive, reducing the time, clicking fast in the buttons let him think I'm some kind of maniac, if I'm playing against a aggressive opponent I try to play more aggressive then him, playing fast with the raise buttons and try to make him mad and if his more aggressive then me I check fast and make my strategy all about check/raises. In the two fixed limit lowball drawing games I think you should have a huge nerve, because you will lose pretty often against bad players, so when you are winning you have the maximize the winnings. If you watch the PokerStars video introducing Badugi you will see Daniel Negreanu saying: "Badugi is a very fun game because is pure gambling, is about luck... thats why people like it.". That is not complete true but you have to accept that lowball drawing games have more variance, so you can accept the variance and learn how to play with it or move the other games. My advice to all new players is to watch the more aggressive players, like OPTIMUS9RIME, Mati312 and see when and how they play. Also watch how you should play against maniacs watching Fatgirl... is all based on check/raises. What I said apply's to low/medium stacks Online. I know many people disagree, but I think poker is all about maximizing the winnings by playing aggressive and learn when you should leave the table. But that is hard to do because most of the aggressive players have a huge ego and they find humiliating to leave when they are losing.

This applies to some degree to all poker games:
The aggressive player has two weapons: His showdown value (if any ) and his fold equity.
The passive player has only showdown value -- but it s the bigger gun. A passive player with a strong hand will win bigger pots less often. The aggressive player will win smaller pots more often. Often enough? That is the big question.

I try my best to switch modes as needed, but don't always succeed.

I think too, that the positive effect of aggression is seen more at the micros and at higher stakes -- Mid stakes It seems less effective. Does that apply to Badugi as well?

Cheers,
VS

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
The passive player has only showdown value -- but it s the bigger gun. A passive player with a strong hand will win bigger pots less often. The aggressive player will win smaller pots more often. Often enough? That is the big question.

Then again, aggression is also what creates those big pots in the first place, so even when it comes to nothing but showdown value, the aggressive player will win bigger pots than the passive player in many situations. Of course, he will also lose more when things do not go as planned.

I don't know how this game is played live, I think have some action in California and in Nevada there are only mix-games. Online is a complete different story, the very best players are very very aggressive and they call many rivers bets short-handed. The concept "the major mistake in badugi is to don't fold at the right time" that was applied playing against almost any made badugi is getting lost in my opinion. I see players calling many times when they should not in my opinion, and I think: "They are playing against the odds.", but they are the final bosses and him just here playing for lousy bucks.

"If a player has a three-card badugi such as A♣ 2♠ 3♦ 3♥ in the first round, the probability of making a four-card badugi by the final draw is 51%. With a one-card draw, the chance of making a badugi is approximately 21% per draw." -- This with 10 outs and he can make a bad badugi most of the times, considering a good badugi a 9/8.

I think almost every player at the high stakes is applying the same concept in badugi that is applied in Stud hi. In Stud hi players normally call last street just because is the right play because of the size of the pot. Badugi at the higher stakes is like American football... one defends while the other is attacking. So the aggressive player doesn't need to worry like you said about his showdown value, because they will call him more times, but the solid player that is defending by check-raising and calling will play more times with his image, so he will snow more times and the aggressive players will also want to see showdowns more times just to keep the valance. Is like a mind game, the aggressive player knows that his going to get called more times and the passive player know he will get called less times.