Originally posted by kavboj84
Even with a strong draw you are going to improve only 20% of the time from turn to river.
Wrong. Strong draws like FD + Overcards can be up to 30-33% if you include drawing to a hand that can value bet.
The way the model works is that you work backwards from the river arriving at the correct bluffing frequency.
Not to mention that you wont have a draw every time, nay most of the time you wont. I dont remember exactly but the chance of floping a straight or a flushdraw is something like 10%.
You're 16% to flop a flush draw with a suited hand preflop.
What you're assuming here is that I'm going to want to bet all my bluffs on the river and that is not correct under almost any circumstances you have to have some hands you are willing to give up with from turn to river and given many of your hands will improve from turn to river then having only a 6% decrease cannot be correct, especially when many value hands on the turn will cease to be value hands by the river meaning by # of combos 14% bluffs on river =/= 14% bluffs on turn.
By your logic we should only be continuation betting the flop with the absolute nuts because our opponent is immediately getting 5-1 even in a single raised pot (meaning we should only have about 16.67% bluffs in our flop betting range) and I'm pretty sure you know that's not correct so there must be a flaw in you using single street methodology when it comes to analysing your betting patterns.
And also I dont understand the calculation why should you bluff 31%
You work backwards from the river.
Again, this is a model not a wholly encompassing GTO solution (hint: your opponent can raise you, you can also bet/3/bet for value or as a bluff so there are complexities added).
It's a model calling Stacking Bluffs and you can read about it either in:
The Mathematics of Poker - Bill Chen & Jerod Ankenman
The Math of Holdem - Collin Moshman & Douglas Zare
Further Limit Holdem - Phil Newall
The idea is based on a couple of assumptions:
1) You will always bet your hands for value
2) You will give up on draws street by street
3) The mere presence of future betting rounds means that you can bluff more than your opponent's immediate pot odds would dictate.
It doesn't take into account the following:
1) Your opponent can raise you on post-flop streets making things "cost" more (reason to bluff less, especially with hands that can't stand a raise like a gutshot and 2 unders)
2) Your semi-bluffs actually have a value element and thus do not count as a "full" bluff whereas value hands are actually always value hands, they have no bluff component. (reason to bluff more)
3) You will give up some value hands between Flop - Turn - and River. (Leads to giving up on a few more bluffs but doesn't really change the ratio)
Here how the model works for a single raised HUHU pot:
You estimate/know the final river pot size and thus the ratio of value/bluffs you're working towards:
You act like all the bets on the river (full pot size) is for value on the turn. You then Scale Up the odds on the turn to find out how many "additional" bluff combos are needed on the turn and add them to the full pot size
You then repeat the process for the flop.
River: The final pot size will be 7BB. Our opponent will be getting 6-1 therefore we should bluff with 1 bluff combo for every 6 value combos
Now working backwards.
On the Turn our opponent is getting 4-1 to call our bet. So for every 4 value combos we have we should make 1 bluff. The final pot is 7BB so the equation is:
Bluff Combos To Add * 4 = 7
so bluff combos to add = 1.75.
This gives us a total of 2.75 bluff combos into a total number of bets of 8.75 (Adding the bluff combos to the river hands) = 31% of our range.
Again now on the flop all 8.75 combos are value on the turn so let's work out how much we need on the flop:
Well our opponent is getting 5-1 so for every 5 value combos we need 1 bluffing combo.
Scale up and the Equation is
Bluff Combos to Add * 5 = 8.75
And how lucky it's 1.75 again
This brings us to 4.5 bluff combos in a total number of combos of 10.5 = 43%
Now again, this model is not perfect by any means, but it is close to the previous model for sure and it also allows for something which the previous model did not which is giving up on bluffs. The previous model was very flat about what it bet on turn and river.
Now, don't forget things are different for the caller as well as the better here:
For example we often say that someone facing a bet off someone getting 4-1 should only fold the bottom 20% of their range. Well more often than not you're going to fold a little more often than that due to reverse implied odds, especially on the turn (again leading to, yes we should bluff more than pot odds dictate on the turn)
However this isn't easy to apply to the game even with the correct bluffing ratios known:
1) Draws complicate things because they improve your equity and will often turn into value hands
2) You won't be able to bet all value hands all the way but really all this means is simply giving up on an appropriate ratio of missed draws and often the reason you can't value bet is that draws have come in
3) Leverage - This is one of the main multi-street concepts. You're not just calling 1 bet on the turn, you are being threatened with another so the cost of calling a bet on the turn with a bluff catcher is actually more than 1 bet because it's so often followed up by another. (Reverse Implied Odds Concept leading to higher bluff frequency)
Now this model, as I've said is pretty simple but it cannot be exploited by calling. Can it be exploited by raising, yes possibly it can but that would still be very hard to do, especially if you do what is suggested in many concepts which is to bluff with hands with higher equity and accounting for future card distribution.
It becomes more complex as you introduce more options with regards to raising but still it is a far more accurate model and most like HUHU single raised pots than simply playing by the calling odds