Calling vs Raising Preflop: Spliting Hairs on the BTN.

28.03.2012, 03:24 0

Two similar hands came up during the Advanced Coaching which I played differently. Its not clear to me whether both were played correctly, but I had several reasons for my decision and those reasons become interesting. In fact, the situations were similar enough that we can treat players in both situations as being identical.

These reasons involve several factors:

Estimated Equity vs the action ahead of us.
Whether our hand is in the ORC for my position.
Equity in multiway pots.
Constants:
Required Equity to call Preflop: ~31% (vs CO/BB), 25% (4 handed)
Value of initiative: Difficult to quantify, but relatively Constant. Less than average here.
Fold Equity: Tough to say, constant. Less than average for sure.

With so many factors its curious that certain strategies are considered dominant so much of the time. In fact, open limping preflop and limping in vs 1 limper are generally regarded as dominated strategies. In other words, whenever calling is better than folding, raising is universally regarded as better than calling.

If this is actually true, why? If not, why not?

READS: Blinds are approx. 45/10, CO is 45/10.
$0.25/$0.5 Fixed-Limit Hold'em (5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BU with 9:h, 8:h.
MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero raises

Spoiler

Estimated Equity against limper: 42%
in ORC for position: YES.
Equity in multiway pots: 24.5% (4 handed), 31.3% (3 handed).

READS: Blinds are approx. 45/10, CO is 45/10.
$0.25/$0.5 Fixed-Limit Hold'em (5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BU with T:s, 9:d.
MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero calls

Spoiler

Estimated Equity against limper: 43%
in ORC for position: YES.
Equity in multiway pots: 23.6% (4 handed), 30.5% (3 handed).

The differences are subtle, but are they important? Frankly I'm not sure. 98s suffers much less multiway when compared with T9o. 98s also has greater playability.

To value raise we need about 48% equity against the limper because of the dead money in the pot. We don't so we need something else to justify our raise. Our fold equity is lower against these players. T9o doesn't have a value play multiway but 98s does. Initiative is not as valuable when players will donk bet because I can take fewer free cards. Their donk bets do make position more valuable for me though.

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2 replies

firsttsunami

Joined: 23.01.2006

Posts: 30,011

29.03.2012, 11:11 0

With so many factors its curious that certain strategies are considered dominant so much of the time. In fact, open limping preflop and limping in vs 1 limper are generally regarded as dominated strategies. In other words, whenever calling is better than folding, raising is universally regarded as better than calling.

I think this is not true. The condition for raising is that you are ahead of your opponents range but that's actually not the only condition when you are torn between raise or just call. Those 2 hands have a great playability postflop and the better the playability is, the less you need initiative because with hands like A2o playing against initiative is a lot more tougher as when you have initiative and very often a bet flop, bet/fold Turn Spot if you hit nothing. Whereas 98 has got no showdownvalue and if you flop nothing, you can just check/fold.

An Argument for raising is definitely to isolate the fish and get headsup with him but against such a guy who chases any2 and has a high wts and peels just QJ on the Turn again i would avoid raising and try to keep in as much players as possible. Especially 98s lives from it's multiway potential whereas A2 is a hand you don't wanna have 1 or 2 more players around in the pot.

But if CO is very fit or fold on the flop i would raise. It depends whether you wanna give up your implied odds multiway for the foldequity you may have headsup. ANd if you think, the blinds are fishy and SB will also call J9o for 1,5SB you don't have the advantage of getting better hands to fold that have you dominated.

I would definitely overlimp T9o and 98s is ok to overlimp as well whereas i'd raise 98s sometimes to balance my range and raising both is not a great mistake but i think it's worth to keep the pot small and multiway and try to play a 4handed pot and keep your implied odds high and give up the dead money and foldequity postflop. And make an exception if the blinds are "very" tight and CO plays fit or fold.

How to exactly outweigh the pros and cons i don't know as well. It's a close situation. I will forward this thread to another german handevaluator who may take a look upon this subject.

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_Anonymous_

29.03.2012, 11:31 0

yeah, isolating a bad player against other bad players seems unnecessary in general. shutting out good players is more sensible.

There's not so many reasons to balance our range against poor opponents when they're not going to minimize my profits effectively. Even where they try to exploit a more narrow hand range they'll adapt incorrectly if they're trying to adapt.. In other words, I might as well play the highest EV line.

I haven't decided if I played either or both hands best. When the players behind are weak and 98s does better in multiway pots it seems like limping with that hand is more profitable if limping will make multiway pots more likely.

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