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You do with them what ever you want, but that is not what *I* would do with steel balls...
--VS
5-Card Draw
I actually had a good session today -- short and sweet.
When the $1/$2 table broke up, I played some $0.25/$0.50 and some $0.50/$1 to finish off the session.
A couple of interesting hands:
Milked from the teat of a feral cow
PokerStars Limit 5 Card Draw $1/$2 - 5 players
UTG: $208.62
CO: $43.96 (Hero)
Button: $16.80
SB: $43.84
BB: $7.39
Dealing Hands: ($1.50) 7♣ 8♦ 7♦ 9♠ 7♠ (5 players)
UTG raises to $2, Hero raises to $3, 3 folds, UTG calls $1
First Draw: ($7.50) (2 players)
UTG discards 3, Hero discards 1,
7♣ 7♦ 9♠ 7♠ || 5♣
UTG checks, Hero bets $2, UTG raises to $4, Hero calls $2
Call a x/r w/ 777 ???
How often do I have to be good for this to be profitable?
Should I have checked this back?
I called for what I call "note equity" -- the investment gets me decent info on how he plays.
UTG showed K♥ K♦ A♠ 5♠ K♣, three of a kind, Kings
Hero mucked
UTG won $14.88
(Rake: $0.62)
Hand 2:
This one was way more fun:
Villain is both loose and bluffy post-draw.
Converting hands till the cows come home
PokerStars Limit 5 Card Draw $0.25/$0.50 - 5 players
SB: $8.22
BB: $7.44 (Hero)
UTG: $11.07
CO: $5.34
Button: $6.79
Dealing Hands: ($0.35) 5♠ 5♦ 5♥ 7♠ 5♣ (5 players)
UTG folds, CO raises to $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, CO raises to $1, Hero calls $0.25
First Draw: ($2.10) (2 players)
Hero discards 1, CO discards 1,
5♠ 5♦ 5♥ 5♣ || J♦
I mulled this over from the start:
Do I bet out, or do I x/r ?
I decided to bet out, since x/r might look too strong, and I was pretty sure I was going to get 3Bet from this guy.
I pushed him a bit far, I think...
Hero bets $0.50, CO raises to $1, Hero raises to $1.50, CO folds
Hero collected $3.94
(Rake: $0.16)
Not very often you get quads twice in 150 hands, and paid off on both:
beware the feral cow packs. they hunger.
PokerStars Limit 5 Card Draw $1/$2 - 4 players
SB: $38.58 (Hero)
BB: $12.00
UTG: $10.56
Button: $12.91
Dealing Hands: ($1.50) J♦ 2♠ Q♥ Q♠ T♠ (4 players)
2 folds, Hero raises to $2, BB calls $1
First Draw: ($4.00) (2 players)
Hero discards 3, BB discards 2,
Q♥ Q♠ || Q♣ K♠ Q♦
Hero checks, BB bets $2, Hero raises to $4, BB calls $2
Hero showed Q♣ K♠ Q♥ Q♠ Q♦, four of a kind, Queens
BB mucked 3:s 5:h 3:c A:d 3:d <== I'm guessing he held 33Axx pre-draw
Hero won $11.64
(Rake: $0.36)
Later,
--VS
Hey.
Nice to see 5-card draw player here :). I also played for some time. About hands,
1st hand:
It is call. U are too weak for 3-bet, but u still have a lot of worse hands, who are calling u here, like high two pairs. Ofcourse there can be higher trips, but as u said, still got the note.
2nd hand:
I preffer x/r since agression is on his side. If he had monster draw, he have to cbet it, even if he didn't hit anything. With trips he is cbet/calling. Full can be cbet/3-bet. When u donk betting, u lost value from missed draws, trips only calls it.
3rd hand:
It should be cbet postdraw. If he is drawing 2 cards, he has trips or one pair with good kicker (probably ace), so a lot of his range is check backing there and u lost a lot of value. Hands like trips will be, if u check, but only calls your raise. If u cbet trips will be raise'ing and calling a 3-bet, so u got one more big bet.
Thanks for your comments!
There is a lot I need to learn about the higher limits
There aren't a lot of PokerStrategy.com members that play 5-Card Draw any more.
--VS
IMHO 1st hand is definitely a fold after X/R from a solid player, but for the first couple of time it's OK to call for making note. OFC he will X/R AAA-KKK, may be QQQ here, interesting question - would he ever X/R AAxx or bluff?
You don't use HUD, do you? His X/R % is rather usefull in this spot.
The first hand made me realise that, if you play a sensible range from UTG, for example AKKxx+, get raised, call and then draw three, you're OOP with AAxxx or KKxxx. How can it ever be profitable to be OOP with a tightly defined range against, if Villain draws one, a polarized range? Surely that's a recipe for disaster. I can't help thinking that an optimal strategy would have to involve playing some of these hands differently, for example discarding just one, or maybe snowing KKxxx. I don't really know, but it's surely hard to play. From your point of view in this hand, playing against this tight range, maybe you can do some funky stuff too, like standing pat with some of your trips and two pair range when you have something like 222AK or AA22K, because you have some of his outs. I don't know, but probably a straightforward player isn't check raise bluffing in this spot and you can safely fold 777xx.
I do use a hud, but I don't have enough hands at this limit for it to be of much use here -- not enough hands for a x/r stat to be valid.
vs jb's well-defined range, he is quite possibly x/r AAXXy (or KKXXy
I haven't checked yet, but he has more combos of that that than AAAxx.
I can't remember if I had shown a raise-with-draw at this table before.
--VS
OFC AAxx > AAA+ like 16% > 12%
If you have reasonable 3bet range vs UTG, his AAxx postdraw is more like bluff catcher, so X/R with it would be just bluff not value raise.
5-Card Draw
In light of the comments from the last few hands, I played this one a bit less aggressively
Feral Cow Poker Hand Converter
PokerStars Limit 5 Card Draw $1/$2 - 6 players
UTG: $27.30
UTG+1: $40.20
CO: $22.37
Button: $31.13
SB: $38.32 (Hero)
BB: $38.44
Dealing Hands: ($1.50) A♠ K♠ A♣ 5♠ 4♥ (6 players)
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $2, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.50, BB raises to $3, UTG+1 calls $1, Hero calls $1
First Draw: ($9.00) (3 players)
Hero discards 3, BB discards 1, UTG+1 discards 3,
A♠ A♣ || 9♠ 7♠ 7♦
Hero checks, BB bets $2, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls $2
Hero showed A♠ 9♠ A♣ 7♠ 7♦, two pair, Aces and Sevens
BB showed 2♥ 9♦ 3♠ 9♣ 2♣, two pair, Nines and Deuces
Hero won $12.48
(Rake: $0.52)
I had considered x/r here, but I was in vs a raiser and a caller, so giving them credit for knowing what they're doing -- and cosidering BB 3Bet over a raise and a call, trips and draws that got there are possible, and what worse hands would call?
Note that in the past I would rarely play AA from the SB, but UTG+1 had been playing TT-KK from the BTN and earlier, so it was worth it.
When BB raises, and UTG + 1 calls, I'm now getting 8:1 to call.
When UTG+1 doesn't cap, we can discount trips (or can we?)
After-draw, I think check/call is best here. I can't sensibly call a post-draw 3Bet with this hand, and BB can easily bet busted draws and worse two-pair.
Hand 2:
Feral Cow Poker Hand Converter
PokerStars Limit 5 Card Draw $1/$2 - 6 players
UTG+1: $23.44
CO: $34.98
Button: $38.50
SB: $1.50
BB: $46.68 (Hero)
UTG: $28.66
Dealing Hands: ($1.50) 3♦ A♦ 3♠ A♣ J♥ (6 players)
3 folds, Button raises to $2, SB calls $1 and is all-in, Hero calls $1
First Draw: ($5.50) (3 players)
SB discards 3, Hero discards 1, Button discards 1,
3♦ A♦ 3♠ A♣ || 3♣
Hero bets $2, Button calls $2
Button mucked Q:d Q:s K:s Q:h 3:h
SB mucked T:d A:h 4:h T:h 4:s
Hero showed 3♦ A♦ 3♠ A♣ 3♣, a full house, Threes full of Aces
Hero won $9.12
(Rake: $0.38)
I think I might have missed an opportunity here.
a x/r for value would be OK, I think.
Peace,
--VS
5-Card Draw
Today's hand:
Feral Cow Poker Hand Converter
PokerStars Limit 5 Card Draw $0.25/$0.50 - 6 players
UTG+1: $2.64
CO: $6.86
Button: $11.09
SB: $11.36 (Hero)
BB: $1.43
UTG: $9.67
Dealing Hands: ($0.35) 2♣ 7♥ 7♦ 7♠ Q♣ (6 players)
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $0.50, CO folds, Button raises to $0.75, Hero calls $0.65, BB folds, UTG+1 raises to $1, Button calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25
First Draw: ($3.25) (3 players)
Hero discards 2, UTG+1 discards 2, Button discards 1,
7♥ 7♦ 7♠ || 9♠ 8♦
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $0.50, Button calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50
UTG+1 showed 6♣ 9♦ 6♥ 6♠ T♠, three of a kind, Sixes
Button mucked 4:s J:s 4:d 4:h 3:c
Hero showed 9♠ 7♥ 7♦ 7♠ 8♦, three of a kind, Sevens
Hero won $4.59
(Rake: $0.16)
In the hand above, I thought that there was a good chance that I was already beaten, but there are so many worse hands, and I'm getting almost 9:1 post draw, I didn't think folding would make sense.
The trouble is, I'm not sure how to judge.
How many times do I have to be right for this to be a +EV call?
In this next hand, I actually have a better hand, but...
Feral Cow Poker Hand Converter
PokerStars Limit 5 Card Draw $0.25/$0.50 - 5 players
UTG: $12.43 (Hero)
CO: $11.02
Button: $2.80
SB: $8.89
BB: $9.07
Dealing Hands: ($0.35) A♥ 5♦ 7♥ J♥ 9♥ (5 players)
Hero raises to $0.50, CO calls $0.50, Button raises to $0.75, SB folds, BB calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25
First Draw: ($3.10) (4 players)
BB discards 1, Hero discards 1, CO discards 1, Button discards 1,
A♥ 7♥ J♥ 9♥ || 3♥
BB bets $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, CO raises to $1, Button folds, BB calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50
Hero mucked A:h 3:h 7:h J:h 9:h
CO showed T♦ 2♣ 2♠ T♥ 2♥, a full house, Deuces full of Tens
BB mucked 4:d 9:d Q:d K:d 6:d
CO won $5.94
(Rake: $0.16)
BB was way too aggro, both pre and post-flop. Button (I thought) was just taking advantage of this, and following the BTN 3Bet I had proper pot odds to call.
Post-draw: Although I hit, it looks like two others did too.
Considering I have an A-high flush, I think that this is worth a call to the CO's raise. If this had been a weak flush, perhaps an easy fold. A straight if folded for shure
I keep thinking:
"How often to I have to be good for this to be +EV?"
How do I figure this out?
I'll have a stab at answering my own question:
I call a raise post draw of 1 big bet into a pot of 10 big gets, so
If I'm beaten 9 times, and win on the tenth, I'm dead even.
So if I win better than 1 in 10 times, this is a winning call.
Now the next part:
Am I likely to be ahead even once in 10 times?
If either villain is calling with two pair, there is a 10.75:1 chance he will hit, so the answer appears to be: Just barely.
Given that CO is playing 31/0/17 (v/p/3) with an Afq of 67 after-draw, I'm going to take a wild guess and say my call was OK.
Nice hand him all the same.
This hand set me on my heels for a bit, but I recovered and won it all back plus a bit -- but mostly by grinding out the gimmes.
Have a great week,
--VS
5-Card Draw
I nearly packed it in after this one:
Spoiler
once a cow has a taste for violence, it reverts. it becomes feral.
PokerStars Limit 5 Card Draw $1/$2 - 5 players
UTG: $45.24 (Hero)
CO: $46.94
Button: $32.13
SB: $21.34
BB: $48.54
Dealing Hands: ($1.50) Q♣ A♠ K♠ K♣ 7♦ (5 players)
Hero raises to $2, 3 folds, BB calls $1
First Draw: ($4.50) (2 players)
BB discards 3, Hero discards 2,
A♠ K♠ K♣ || 4♦ 4♥
BB checks, Hero bets $2, BB raises to $4, Hero calls $2
Hero mucked
BB showed 7♠ 9♣ 8♣ 9♠ 9♥, three of a kind, Nines
BB won $12
(Rake: $0.50)
Hermione had that one analysed fairly well:
On the other side...
Converted by a herd of feral cows
PokerStars Limit 5 Card Draw $1/$2 - 6 players
Button: $37.44 (Hero)
SB: $23.34
BB: $37.53
UTG: $7.86
UTG+1: $12.78
CO: $18.22
Dealing Hands: ($1.50) Q♣ J♠ 5♣ Q♥ 9♥ (6 players)
3 folds, Hero raises to $2, SB calls $1.50, BB calls $1
First Draw: ($6.00) (3 players)
SB discards 2, BB discards 3, Hero discards 3,
Q♣ Q♥ || Q♦ 7♦ 2♥
SB checks, BB bets $2, Hero calls $2, SB folds
Hero showed Q♣ Q♦ 7♦ Q♥ 2♥, three of a kind, Queens
BB showed 4♠ 8♥ Q♠ 8♣ 3♥, a pair of Eights
Hero won $9.60
(Rake: $0.40)
I just called after-draw for a few reasons:
♦ To find out what sort of hands this guy plays like this (see Hermione above)
♦ Possibility of being beaten -- slim, but I was getting paranoid
♦ What worse hands would call? Worse trips is about all I can think of, but if he plays like I did in the first hand, maybe Aces up, Kings or even Queens up.
Mental Game
I was very pleased with my regrouping effort after the bad call, and quite happy with the way I handled the long card-dead phase.
The temptation to "just play something" gets quite strong.
Hopefully I'll get a chance to play some more on Thursday during the EN vs FI match on PokerStars.
If you have a PokerStars account, play!
I don't even care which side you're on, I need the money!
Peace,
--VS
Originally posted by Anykey444
What was your idea behind D2 IP vs his D3?
I do that sometimes -- maybe once in a session or so with a pair, and about as often with trips.
No particular reason, in other words.
--VS
2-7 Triple Draw
Say what?!
My 5-Card Draw session got short circuited, and I did not feel like playing $0.10/$0.20, and I noticed that a FL 2-7 Triple Draw freeroll was starting.
I do OK at NL 2-7 Single Draw, and usually suck at the FL triple draw game.
The "astronomer's" freerolls pay a ticked to a weekly round 2.
Tonight's tournament had 1500 entrants, of which the top 48 get paid.
I placed 25th.
The lowball games are just like 5-Card Draw only upside down, and the same principles apply -- you evaluate the odds of being ahead now, the odds of improving and compare that to the chances that villain will improve also.
So good day poker wise
My December Challenge seems to be getting further and further out of reach.
I'll make the points goal easily, but 5K hands of $1/$2 is going to be tough.
Peace,
--VS
Very nice placing ITM as it were. Round two, ding ding! 
Upside down 5CD, 'nuff said really. Good game sir! 
Enjoy the night out.
5-Card Draw
Oh dear.
I had a great day at $1/$2 -- I played 1029 hands, and made a small profit.
I just could not uncork $0.50/$1 though.
In no particular order...
Hand 1:
Spoiler
Feral Cow Poker Hand Converter
PokerStars Limit 5 Card Draw $0.50/$1.00 - 6 players
BB: $9.30
UTG: $18.40
UTG+1: $16.23
CO: $21.42
Button: $12.77
SB: $16.44 (Hero)
Dealing Hands: ($0.75) 8♠ 8♣ 8♦ 9♦ 7♥ (6 players)
UTG raises to $1, 2 folds, Button calls $1, Hero raises to $1.50, BB folds, UTG calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50
First Draw: ($5.00) (3 players)
Hero discards 1, UTG discards 3, Button discards 3,
8♠ 8♣ 8♦ 7♥ || 9♣
Hero bets $1, UTG folds, Button raises to $2, Hero calls $1
Button showed A♣ A♦ 3♥ 5♦ A♥, three of a kind, Aces
Hero mucked
Button won $8.60
(Rake: $0.40)
There were a lot of similar hands.
I need to learn how to fold these -- at least some of them.
The problem of course is that BTN could have Aces up.
I think I'll experiment with the black card trick: If the two 'kickers' are some combination of spades and clubs I call, else I fold.
We'll start with that. and adjust
OK, enough of that
Hand 2:
Spoiler
A pack of feral cows chewed their cuds for .0043 seconds to convert this hand
PokerStars Limit 5 Card Draw $1/$2 - 6 players
BB: $49.54 (Hero)
UTG: $10.04
UTG+1: $33.08
CO: $17.42
Button: $75.16
SB: $33.05
Dealing Hands: ($1.50) 9♣ 6♣ 7♣ 6♠ A♣ (6 players)
3 folds, Button raises to $2, SB folds, Hero raises to $3, Button raises to $4, Hero calls $1
First Draw: ($8.50) (2 players)
Hero discards 1, Button stands,
9♣ 6♣ 7♣ A♣ || T♣
Hero checks, Button bets $2, Hero calls $2
Hero showed 9♣ 6♣ 7♣ T♣ A♣, a flush, Ace high
Button showed 4♠ 8♠ 5♠ T♠ 2♠, a flush, Ten high
Hero won $12
(Rake: $0.50)
I thought of x/r, but considered that might be overplaying it a bit.
Hand #3
Spoiler
Feral Cow Poker
PokerStars Limit 5 Card Draw $1/$2 - 6 players
UTG+1: $44.80
CO: $16.60
Button: $28.18
SB: $11.09
BB: $11.66
UTG: $46.40 (Hero)
Dealing Hands: ($1.50) A♠ 9♦ A♣ T♣ T♠ (6 players)
Hero raises to $2, UTG+1 calls $2, CO raises to $3, 2 folds, BB raises to $4, Hero folds, UTG+1 calls $2, CO calls $1
First Draw: ($14.50) (3 players)
BB discards 1, UTG+1 discards 1, CO stands, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, CO bets $2, 2 folds
CO collected $13.92
(Rake: $0.58)
In the face of all that power, no way I'm going to ride two pair -- even Aces
If the BB had not capped, I would be getting 11:1 -- just about exactly pot odds to call in hopes of a Full House
But as it is, its a fold -- and I actually folded -- wp me.
Hand #4:
Spoiler
Feral Cow Poker Hand Converter
PokerStars Limit 5 Card Draw $1/$2 - 5 players
Button: $45.90
SB: $23.10
BB: $21.96
UTG: $9.33
CO: $50.00 (Hero)
Dealing Hands: ($1.50) 9♠ A♥ 2♣ 5♦ A♣ (5 players)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $2, Button folds, SB calls $1.50, BB raises to $3, Hero calls $1, SB calls $1
First Draw: ($9.00) (3 players)
SB discards 1, BB discards 2, Hero discards 3,
A♥ A♣ || 3♣ 7♦ 8♦
SB checks, BB bets $2, Hero folds, SB calls $2
SB mucked K:d 7:h Q:d 7:s K:h
BB showed 6♠ 2♠ 6♣ 6♥ 4♦, three of a kind, Sixes
BB won $12.48
(Rake: $0.52)
These are the hardest to play.
When I call the 3Bet I'm getting 8:1, which is better than the 7:1 odds of hitting trip Aces.
This is an obvious fold, but would I have been able to fold Aces up here?
Clearly SB couldn't.
Hand #5:
Spoiler
Feral Cow Poker Hand Converter
PokerStars Limit 5 Card Draw $1/$2 - 5 players
UTG: $47.72
CO: $24.41
Button: $2.82
SB: $46.18
BB: $46.26 (Hero)
Dealing Hands: ($1.50) 5♥ K♣ 8♥ 6♥ 8♦ (5 players)
3 folds, SB raises to $2, Hero calls $1
First Draw: ($4.00) (2 players)
SB discards 2, Hero discards 3,
8♥ 8♦ || 8♠ 2♦ Q♣
SB bets $2, Hero raises to $4, SB calls $2
SB mucked 7:c T:h 6:s 5:s 9:s
Hero showed 8♠ 2♦ 8♥ Q♣ 8♦, three of a kind, Eights
Hero won $11.52
(Rake: $0.48)
This guy was playing something like 30/30 and going super aggro post-draw.
He had raised from BTN and SB each time.
My intention was to call, and 3Bet him post-draw, which often works vs someone playing air, or low pairs.
When he called the post-draw 3Bet I thought I might even be beaten.
In all fairness, he might have thought he was playing lowball ???
OK, enough of that crap.
Surprisingly, my mental game held up well.
Yes, I did make some rather stupid plays, but regrouped and settled down.
Best of luck ot all...
==VS
all IMHO
1. At your limit you should use HUD and his aggresion % as a clue for Fold/Call, not apply this GTO trick to every opp. And most not very aggro opps would call with high doper in 3 bet pot, and raise with high trips only.
2. Definite X/R . As a rule most opps will call with any legitimate pat hand. Don't forget: the median predraw pat hand is the Broadway, so you are way ahead.
Originally posted by Anykey444
all IMHO
1. At your limit you should use HUD and his aggresion % as a clue for Fold/Call, not apply this GTO trick to every opp. And most not very aggro opps would call with high doper in 3 bet pot, and raise with high trips only.
2. Definite X/R . As a rule most opps will call with any legitimate pat hand. Don't forget: the median predraw pat hand is the Broadway, so you are way ahead.
I do use a HUD -- Pokerhands.
The problem is that at this limit I have so few hands on the opponents.
Is there another?
Pokerhands starts to bog down when you put over 100K hands in it, and I've now reached that limit twice, and I hate starting over.
Thanks for your comments.
--VS