Skip to forum
Notifications
Clear all

Straight vs Flush vs Fish.

9 Posts
6 Users
0 Reactions
1,201 Views
zoty79
Joined: 31.03.2010

IPoker, $0.05/$0.10, $0.02 ante No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $20.38 (203.8 bb)
BB: $11.88 (118.8 bb)
Hero (UTG): $11.36 (113.6 bb)
MP: $15.35 (153.5 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb)
BTN: $21.09 (210.9 bb) plays 44/7

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q K
Hero raises to $0.30, MP folds, CO calls $0.30, BTN calls $0.30, SB folds, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($1.37) J A 9 (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.68, CO folds, BTN calls $0.68, BB folds

Turn: ($2.73) T (2 players)
Hero bets $2.60, BTN calls $2.60

River: ($7.93) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $7.76 and is all-in, BTN calls $7.76

What do you think? May i shove here the river? Does he have enough Ax in his range, that also would call on such a board?

Results:

Spoiler

$23.45 pot ($1.56 rake)
Final Board: J A 9 T 3
Hero mucked Q K and lost (-$11.36 net)
BTN showed 5 6 and won $21.89 ($10.53 net)


Reply
Quote
8 replies
nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

I do not like the flop bet. You cannot bet with your hand mw vs 3.
I do not like the shove. You will get called only by better hands.


Reply
Quote
la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

I have to agree with nitrol here. I really don't like betting vs 3 opponents otf and that river shove doesn't make much sense. Villain will not call your shove with a worse hand.


Reply
Quote
patrileo
Joined: 05.04.2009

OTF you either bet bigger or don't bet at all. About pot bet OTT is okay if you know Villain will call with bad pot odds.
OTR you should be aware of FD that hit and so c/f or c/c depending on his betting size. No shove here.


Reply
Quote

I like everything except river bet sizing - You should go 1/2 pot bet to extract value from worst hands and fold to a shove because people don't bluff enough in theese limits to justify a call.

Originally posted by nitrol
I do not like the flop bet. You cannot bet with your hand mw vs 3.
I do not like the shove. You will get called only by better hands.

1) Why we can't cbet with our draw + potentially 2 overcards into 2 ? I much more rather cbet than take c/c or c/f line.
2) Would you cbet this spot IP when checked to us?


Reply
Quote
zoty79
Joined: 31.03.2010

Yeah multiway the bet on the flop wasn´t good. On the river i should bet, But what, if the pot wasn´t multiway? do you think he has more Ax there on the river?


Reply
Quote

Against a UTG raise, they shouldn't have too many Ax hands, mostly higher ones, so less hands that might hold on despite being weaker.
with J and A on the board, it's quite likely that someone already hit the flop usually.

So, what are our draws? I would only count 1 draw- T. 4 outs.
Our Q and K are tainted here. it's quite likely we will already be behind even if we hit one of them. In a multi way pot, that's even more true than in heads up pots. They're not real outs in such a case.

So the draw is very weak.

If I knew these players were very loose, sure, then I might add weak aces to their ranges against a UTG raise and these might actually fold here in such a multi way pot where they might be beat already. But without such knowledge of the players, we have a very weak draw and are trying to bluff a 4-way pot with a flop containing 2 cards that easily hit their ranges.

Bottom line regarding the flop: in a 4 way flop, betting against 3 players with a bluff on a wet board tends to be a bad idea. In my opinion, not much of a semi-bluff, since we don't even know if our K and Q will be good at all, so only 4 outs.
Check/folding or check/calling seems a lot better here depending on the action after us. It's just a spot that's usually very bad. If the board was not so wet...

Turn: Good. You got lucky and got the best possible situation - the pot became heads up, and you got your draw. Nothing wrong here.

River: I just don't understand what bet this is.
Is this a value bet or a bluff bet?

If it's for value, there should be a worse hand that will call.
With the strength you've been radiating during the hand, Do you really think many Ace hands will call here? Any hand that isn't a flush? I don't think so.

You're representing a hand that destroys any ace hand on this board (your play makes sense with a straight, a set, and an aggressively played flush draw that hit. Even JT would give you two pair... Ace hands cannot call here.

JT is too far behind as well.
The bigger sets such as AA and JJ might be the only worse hands that may call here, because you can also have a weaker set or two pair with JT, but they are also very unlikely based on the lack of action from preflop to river from this player, and are also too small a part of his range.

So I don't think there's much of a value bet here. Could be, if you had reason to a specific read based on previous hands pointing to a very passive player playing AA or JJ that way. Then you bet smaller. Otherwise, there's no value bet here IMO.

So - is it a bluff bet?
That would mean there should be stronger hands that fold. Tougher spot, and IF this bet is any of the two, it would be a bluff, since weak flushes may sometimes fold. Though here, I think flushes are only a small part of your represented range, so it shouldn't work.

I would c/c this river.
You still lose to flushes, but at least now you induce the weak pairs / ace hands to bluff (they should know they're beaten, if not exactly by what), or probe (if they're not sure, also two pair hands or sets), so you win more than in the actual line chosen.


Reply
Quote
nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Originally posted by Yan4real
I like everything except river bet sizing - You should go 1/2 pot bet to extract value from worst hands and fold to a shove because people don't bluff enough in theese limits to justify a call.

Originally posted by nitrol
I do not like the flop bet. You cannot bet with your hand mw vs 3.
I do not like the shove. You will get called only by better hands.

1) Why we can't cbet with our draw + potentially 2 overcards into 2 ? I much more rather cbet than take c/c or c/f line.
2) Would you cbet this spot IP when checked to us?

1. What will you achieve with your cbet on flop vs 2 ? How many outs you have with your draw?
2. No.


Reply
Quote
zoty79
Joined: 31.03.2010