Could I have won more here?

I think you get max value if you bet a bit smaller OTR. Something like 4 or 5 BB. He will call with any Kx and smaller pairs. I doubt he has a good Kx because this is a limped pot and weak Kx hands and other pairs will most likely check behind OTR. I think one option is to x/r OTT.

No matter how much you bet on river if he is calling, he will call.

Originally posted by nitrol
No matter how much you bet on river if he is calling, he will call.

Right, so you should move in. Likewise, if you don't have the straight here, always bet 1 bb. If he is folding, he'll fold to anything.

(Not)

I'm fine with donking this amount, hoping he is a fish and will not fold his Kx. The other option is to check with the idea that he can be bluffing some stuff on turn but I don't really like this since it's 4way so bluffs are less likely, we're not sure he continues on that river, and we block a decent amount of his FDs.

Edit: donking very small (~3 bbs) vs aggro fish can work fine, too. That way we get calls from his pairs and we might induce a bluffraise from his air.

first I think the check preflop is quite horrible... Raise! isolate! even if you are OOP, you might even take it pre and not pay rake .

if I raise pre and get a GS (ie on that board) I bet the flop, but only against 1 and 2 opponents ( and again it depends of the opponents - most of them will fold to a barrel )

OTT your hand improves, on top of your gut shot, you get a FD, bet or raise!, if you only bet with a made hand, you will lose money in the end... everyone makes on average the same amount of made end (in theory and in the long run )

Originally posted by nitrol
No matter how much you bet on river if he is calling, he will call.

Ok, lets assume villain has AT. If he is willing to call 4bb bet OTR he will call a shove also? Sounds reasonable.. But now I'm a bit confused.. Can you explain thin value betting to me, is it irrelevant now? I should bet 1bb otr when I have a weak hand but showdown value and shove when I have a good hand?

Originally posted by thazar
first I think the check preflop is quite horrible... Raise! isolate! even if you are OOP, you might even take it pre and not pay rake .

if I raise pre and get a GS (ie on that board) I bet the flop, but only against 1 and 2 opponents ( and again it depends of the opponents - most of them will fold to a barrel )

OTT your hand improves, on top of your gut shot, you get a FD, bet or raise!, if you only bet with a made hand, you will lose money in the end... everyone makes on average the same amount of made end (in theory and in the long run )

The reason why I didn't raise is because I want to hit the nut flush draw without a lot of other players in the pot. Is this really a bad strategy? It pays a lot better to have many opponents when playing big hands, according to my experience. So thats the reason I didn't want to isolate.

Otherwise I agree, that I could have played the turn more aggressively.

/Nutcr4cker

Originally posted by la55i

Originally posted by nitrol
No matter how much you bet on river if he is calling, he will call.

Ok, lets assume villain has AT. If he is willing to call 4bb bet OTR he will call a shove also? Sounds reasonable.. But now I'm a bit confused.. Can you explain thin value betting to me, is it irrelevant now? I should bet 1bb otr when I have a weak hand but showdown value and shove when I have a good hand?

Wake up, there is 4-to-a-straighton the board...

Originally posted by nitrol

Originally posted by la55i

Originally posted by nitrol
No matter how much you bet on river if he is calling, he will call.

Ok, lets assume villain has AT. If he is willing to call 4bb bet OTR he will call a shove also? Sounds reasonable.. But now I'm a bit confused.. Can you explain thin value betting to me, is it irrelevant now? I should bet 1bb otr when I have a weak hand but showdown value and shove when I have a good hand?

Wake up, there is 4-to-a-straighton the board...

Nooo there is only 3. Only 9x makes a straight. But yeah, I got your point.

Originally posted by thazar
first I think the check preflop is quite horrible... Raise! isolate! even if you are OOP, you might even take it pre and not pay rake .
...

The only thing a preflop raise is accomplishing (for 90%+ of the PS population) is to put you in a difficult-to-play spot postflop with a hand that prefers cheap flop and multiway, not HU OOP versus a stronger hand (because that is what you will isolate, not a fish with 72o). The only good reason to raise is to sweeten the pot. Then raise to 2.5 bb so that you don't lose anyone. But stacks aren't quite big enough for that play (close to though), so check preflop.

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by thazar
first I think the check preflop is quite horrible... Raise! isolate! even if you are OOP, you might even take it pre and not pay rake .
...

The only thing a preflop raise is accomplishing (for 90%+ of the PS population) is to put you in a difficult-to-play spot postflop with a hand that prefers cheap flop and multiway, not HU OOP versus a stronger hand (because that is what you will isolate, not a fish with 72o). The only good reason to raise is to sweeten the pot. Then raise to 2.5 bb so that you don't lose anyone. But stacks aren't quite big enough for that play (close to though), so check preflop.

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by thazar
first I think the check preflop is quite horrible... Raise! isolate! even if you are OOP, you might even take it pre and not pay rake .
...

The only thing a preflop raise is accomplishing (for 90%+ of the PS population) is to put you in a difficult-to-play spot postflop with a hand that prefers cheap flop and multiway, not HU OOP versus a stronger hand (because that is what you will isolate, not a fish with 72o). The only good reason to raise is to sweeten the pot. Then raise to 2.5 bb so that you don't lose anyone. But stacks aren't quite big enough for that play (close to though), so check preflop.

when I say raise I mean raise, not 2.5bb; with 3 people already in the pot and OOP I probably would raise 7 or 8bb here and isolate. Then you are more often than not only heads up and very often you have got the pot straight away

Originally posted by thazar

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by thazar
first I think the check preflop is quite horrible... Raise! isolate! even if you are OOP, you might even take it pre and not pay rake .
...

The only thing a preflop raise is accomplishing (for 90%+ of the PS population) is to put you in a difficult-to-play spot postflop with a hand that prefers cheap flop and multiway, not HU OOP versus a stronger hand (because that is what you will isolate, not a fish with 72o). The only good reason to raise is to sweeten the pot. Then raise to 2.5 bb so that you don't lose anyone. But stacks aren't quite big enough for that play (close to though), so check preflop.

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by thazar
first I think the check preflop is quite horrible... Raise! isolate! even if you are OOP, you might even take it pre and not pay rake .
...

The only thing a preflop raise is accomplishing (for 90%+ of the PS population) is to put you in a difficult-to-play spot postflop with a hand that prefers cheap flop and multiway, not HU OOP versus a stronger hand (because that is what you will isolate, not a fish with 72o). The only good reason to raise is to sweeten the pot. Then raise to 2.5 bb so that you don't lose anyone. But stacks aren't quite big enough for that play (close to though), so check preflop.

when I say raise I mean raise, not 2.5bb; with 3 people already in the pot and OOP I probably would raise 7 or 8bb here and isolate. Then you are more often than not only heads up and very often you have got the pot straight away

I know what you mean. It is a horrible play. You don't win right away often enough to make it profitable. You need to win right away 2/3 of the times because you risk 8 to win 4. (Yeah, yeah, four and a half the few times you succeed.) The probability that all fold is, somewhat simplified, ppp, where p is the probability that one folds. This makes the simplifying assumption that folds are independent and equal for every player. (This is done only to show how optimistic you need to be to see folds.) Thus solve ppp = 2/3 for p, which yields approximately p = 0.87. They aren't folding that much. You are a huge underdog for the rest of the money that goes in because you are OOP with a hand that sucks.

To illustrate my point, If I was playing on the button with a decent stack and was aware that you (or anyone else playing deep in the big blind) was overly squeeze happy, I'd overlimp a fair amount of hands if deep myself. Of those, there is no way I am ever folding more than, say, 50% to a 8bb raise, even if it means heads up, because I called anticipating the raise. I'd basically be looking to play versus a weak range in position. My own hand is not that important.

The pot sweetener is however profitable once you play well postflop (good enough to overcome bad position versus these particular opponents) and stacks are deep enough.

I obviously choose my spots

He'd fold the river no matter how much you bet. Even if you had only bet 1 BB on the river, he still would have folded.