Zoom 2017 - No more tears!

May the new blog bring you all the success you want

That’s a big story already on your first blog post. Maybe the https://forums.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=325001 promotion is something for you.

Further I wish you all the best with improving your game and bankroll with playing ZOOM

Cheers,
SDK1987

Thoughts on the week so far

Bankroll management and tilt
Disaster struck on Monday. With a mixture of downswing, tilt and poor bank roll management I managed to wipe out two thirds of my bank roll. I had a stop loss in place after moving up to NL5 at $125. I completely ignored this. I had a session of -$30 below EV, which is fair enough as I had session last week above EV. However my idea was to "play through" the downswing. Which was a mistake. Considering at best I have shown myself to be a break even player I was never going to be able to win the money back, I should have just stopped and tried to find out why I can't manage to be better than breaking even.
This large loss just put me on tilt, with the standard gamblers mentality that I need to make the money back, which I wouldn't be able to do if I dropped down to NL2, so I continued playing under rolled. And the losses just kept mounting up. I then tried to "win" it back with some $3 spin and goes. Another mistake as I don't play that format.
Anyway after that I had $46. So back into NL2.

New plan of attack - Written Tuesday
So for now I am going to change my goals. Going to have my ratio of study to play be 80% study then 20% play. I am going to play 2 tables at Zoom speed and just try and put into practice what I have learnt. I am also going to finish "The Grinder's Manual" as I now see that it was stupid to try and put it into practice before reading the full book. Sort of like reading only half a set of instructions then trying to put something together any way. I am also going to watch some more training videos on this site and elsewhere on the internet.

New target
Rather than having a set bankroll management approach to when I move up stakes I am going to try and achieve a constant positive bb/100 that I can maintain over a decent sample of hands. This might slow my progress between stakes, however I feel that it will mean when I do finally move up I am likely to be over rolled so not under such pressure to make back any losses, such as what I tried this week. I haven't decided the targets yet, but I'll be monitoring it.

Interesting hand
This hand I found very interesting. At first I thought that the BTN was a massive donk showing up to an all-in with 65s, then I checked the percentages.

He is doing better than KK. Which makes sense now I think about it but found it very surprising. I haven't done the maths on it but I don't think he quiet gets the odds for the call, but it is pretty close. It all showed me how the equity of AA can be reduced significantly when it is a multiway all-in.

Interesting hand

That fold on the river. $1.58 pot with $0.16 behind and he folds

Maybe that guy is the real TonyG with that call in the BU He is a fish get a note on him, dont think he played that hand because he ¨made the math¨ .

I´ve seen people folding on the river when they had 6 cents left, I asked after the hand why in the hell you keep 6 cents, he said : Well I win atleast 6 cents .

Can you post your HUD here ?
Or better can you post a hand where you have over 200 hands on Villain and you guys get to showdown and post your thoughts on the hand with the help of the HUD ?
Maybe you dont use your HUD at a full potential.

Was easy for me to beat NL2 just playing with my HUD on and abuse the tendencies of the fishes.

My HUD is:

Not much on it really. I have switched to normal speed for a bit to see if playing same villains helps. Only thing is that it is pretty dull, how many tables do you play on normal speed? I am pretty limited due to screen size, I also don't want to spread myself too thinly.

Originally posted by Catonthemat
Only thing is that it is pretty dull, how many tables do you play on normal speed? I am pretty limited due to screen size, I also don't want to spread myself too thinly.

On Pokerstars I was able to play 10-12 with no problem on my 15¨ laptop. I dont need to stay focused on every table after I tag every player.

On 888 tho the software is much...I dont know, I just dont like it lol... I can only play up to 6 tables only.

If you have time after you tag every player at the tables and you have time to get notes on them, then open a new table

You should add to your HUD atleast Fold to 3bet ( More usefull stats : WSD , AF )

More thoughts on the week so far

Warm up and cool down
Part of the book "The mental game of poker" talks about having a warm up routine before you start to play, similar how you would before starting a sport. I got Snowie this week (bigger section in the next post). This I have included in my routine;
-Study 45-60mins
-Challenge Snowie with live evaluation on. 300 hands before first session, 100 hands for each session after. Making notes on anything the surprises me or is different to what I would do. Obviously not too worried if the EV difference isn't huge. Especially as NL2 players are going to be playing far from optimal as Snowie assumes.
-Play poker 1k hands
-Whilst playing make notes and mark hands

Then comes the cool down (or session review).
Firstly I have a look at overall score by Snowie and what suggestions it makes. Obviously these are taken with a pinch of salt as some plays will be due to "reads" and the sample size for the day will be low. I then check all the spots that snowie has identified as Major errors and identify why they were errors taken into account the EV difference between the play I made. I also try and think about my thought process during the hand to see if that is something I need to change to make sure I don't make the same mistake again, or if it was just that I was unsure what to do. Any hands that I can't see why Snowie is recommending a different play I post on the hand review forum to get the human response.

Leak of the Week!

So my game is improving (I think) But my single biggest leak is not being able to find the fold button. This happens more when I am on tilt. For example I had one session of 1500 hands that I was running 4 BI under EV (fair enough it is poker), but I exacerbated the problem by not finding the fold button. In that session I had hands marked as "Bad call", meaning I know at the time I shouldn't be calling but do it and pray they don't have exactly what I put them on, which totalled $9.81 (almost 5 BI). If I had found the fold button, even running under EV, I would have had a very profitable session rather than a slightly losing session. It is something I am going to be working on for the next coming weeks, and I hope by making a note each day of how much "bad calls" cost me it should reinforce how much work they are undoing. I do also mark "bad calls" that I win, even though I really shouldn't have been calling in the first place. This are few and far between though.

HUD & Tagging players
So AgapieGheorghe's suggestion of using the HUD even with minimum hands has been something I have been trying out. I do still have it set to only show after 40 hands, as anything lower is going to be completely random really but above that you can get a very rough feel if certain stats are extremely far off you would expect. As suggested I have added fold to 3bet. The rest of the stats I just look up in the popup if I need to. I don't really like having the HUD getting too busy, and I like to have the abbreviations at the front so I don't accidentally reading something into a stat by reading the wrong number.

Pretty basic really.
Name | Total Hands (colour ranged)
VPIP | PFR
Fold to steal SB | Fold to steal BB| 3Bet (colour ranged) | Fold to 3bet (colour ranged)
Flop Cbet (colour ranged) | Fold to CB (colour ranged) | WTSD (colour ranged)

I then have a very crude tagging system. I only tag people after 100 hands or if they do something very surprising, such as bluff shoving with K8o (I had KK ). I say they are crude as they are more just to wake me up to the people at the table when zooming through tables. For example I see a yellow player and I know that his stats suggest he plays tight. I then check what the stats say as there are some "Just about Nits" and "super Nits" (one guy has 400 hands and has 7/5 with 1% 3bet which must only be AA) within the tag. But it does save me from blindly making an action which I might not have had I seen the stats first.

So far my main stats of choice for effecting decision making are 3bet, which has made a tidy profit from those 25% 3bettors out there. Then fold to Cbet, which teamed with the right board has slowly kept my redline up with a cbet when I have complete air on the flop that has no chance of improving.

Week 2 - 22/01/2017

Thoughts on the week

This week was:

Not quite a plummet, however a solid negative trajectory. I have taken the decision that I should take a break to sort out my main issues, if I continue to play without improving I am just onto a looser really. So I have frozen my PokerStars account for 7 days.

The 7 days of study…

And with those 7 days I am going to put my all into learning the game. Without a solid "standard" game I won't know how I am meant to adjust when I start getting reads on the villains. So let the brain bashing begin.

Learning plan
I am going to continue to view the videos on Poker strategy and make notes. (as well as other sites).
I am going to continue to read and make notes on "The Grinder's manual".
I am going to continue to read and make notes on "The mental game of poker 1&2". Tilt still accounts for a lot of my stupid calls, which is my biggest leak.
Play a hands on Snowie with live evaluation switched on.
Play hands on Snowie with live evaluation switched off. These will be done in small batches of hands, after playing them I shall check the report on the analysis that Snowie does on those hands. Making notes of different spots where I made errors.
Going to do a ratio of 1:3 for live evaluation on:off
Hope my Snowie Rating gets better.

Snowie
Snowie is going to one of the tools I am going to be using during the studying. So I would guess that most people have heard of Snowie, but a quick recap so my plan makes sense. Snowie is an artificial intelligence that was working on playing poker to game theory optimum by playing itself. There are two main version. SnowieApp which is part of Hold'em manager and PokerSnowie which is a standalone version. As both have a bit of a negative about them; SnowieApp doesn't have the ability to input scenarios or play against Snowie, and PokerSnowie has a limit on hands that can be analysed a month. So decided to get both It might seem a bit pricey but as I have had days when I have lost $80 punting it off on the NL5 tables getting something for a year is definitely a better investment. I bought the smallest package of PokerSnowie so I can play against Snowie, then bought the app for HM2 as it can the analyse all my hands.

Snowie - Live evaluation

It gives you a suggestions of the most EV option, it also shows the EV difference. I am hoping that by playing with this advice on I shall get it ingrained into my brain. You can also switch this off so you can practice without any hints. These hands are then exported and analysed by Snowie.

Snowie - Analysed by Snowie
It rates my session;

Obviously not scoring very high now. It also gives the amount of blunders (big mistakes) and errors (smaller mistakes). These are the spots I'll be checking.

It also gives handy tips on why things where wrong.

…and beyond!
PokerStrategy tracked
Finally found a site that I haven't registered with, 888Poker. Originally I thought I had already registered as I have for the sports site, but thankfully they aren't linked so I get all the new user sign ups as well. So 888 is where I am going to take my new found skills after the 7 days of study. I am not going to play until the 7 days are up, as don't want to start on the same path that my challenge has been so far. I am going to try and make the most of the sign up offers and wait till I can do a large deposit to make the most of it. I am going to stick to the idea of getting a constant bb/100 before moving up rather than the bankroll, as doing a large deposit for the bonus would leave me over rolled.

Goals
Sport or fitness 3 times a week.
Duolingo (Spanish) - Daily.
Minium 2 hours study/day
10000+ Snowie hands - total.

After you make the account send them an email and ask them for sure if the account is tracked.

You cant play for a week now ? I´m free until thursday if you will play and want to do a sweat session.

Originally posted by AgapieGheorghe
After you make the account send them an email and ask them for sure if the account is tracked.

You cant play for a week now ? I´m free until thursday if you will play and want to do a sweat session.

Yea, I have frozen the PokerStars account for a 7 day time out so that I not tempted to given in and play instead of studying.

Yea a sweat session would be cool. I am free whenever is best really.

Good idea about blocking Stars for a week, I wish I had the discipline to do such things! I think I'd get bored and sign up for 888 the next day and play there!

Seems like you've got a good head on your shoulders, and looking at Agapie's blog also, you two could get dangerous when working together! Give me a shout if you want a 3rd wheel!

Originally posted by Penguinthief
Good idea about blocking Stars for a week, I wish I had the discipline to do such things! I think I'd get bored and sign up for 888 the next day and play there!

Seems like you've got a good head on your shoulders, and looking at Agapie's blog also, you two could get dangerous when working together! Give me a shout if you want a 3rd wheel!

The more the merrier

I have actually just signed up on 888poker, but not going to deposit till next week. Not sure how much I will play there though as the Zoom table looks pretty light on the number of players. It is more for the pokerstrategy points to unlock some more content

Thoughts on the week so far

Progress so far - Study
My studying has been going well. I have watched some more KTU videos and only have 2 left. I have also watched videos from other sites to add to the learning. I am now 50% complete for "The Grinders Manual", I am hopefully going to finish the book by the end of the 7 days of study. However as I am making notes as I go I don't want to rush it just to finish. I have also done more reading of "The mental game of poker", as tilt is a big leak when I start to call too wide. I am going to try and have a plan to counteract these situations sorted before I start to play again.

Progress so far - Snowie
Snowie, well what can I say I think my numbers where a bit optimistic. I had hoped for 10k hands by the end of the week, however I am not going to get anywhere near that. I am about halfway through the 7 days of study and I only have 1,600 hands. This is due to a mixture of motivation and the depth on analysis.

Motivation This is a bit of a problem as I now feel that when studying before I used play poker as a reward of doing the studying. Now that it is all study there isn't really an instant reward, and playing against Snowie doesn't feel like a reward. This is turning around a bit today compared to other days, but it does take an effort to remind myself that the work is for a long term return rather than a short time shot of fun. The turn around is probably because I can see an improvement in the amount of mistakes that Snowie is picking up.
In depth analysis This was what made the huge difference about number of hands that can be played. At the start when playing with live evaluation on I was making a lot of notes as I went along. This meant hands took a very long time. Then the hands with live evaluation off the after play analysis has been taking a long time as I try and understand why Snowie has marked the hand as an error. This second part is reducing significantly now as I start to improve in my play.

I am going to keep playing against Snowie. I have decided to stop doing the hands with live evaluation on as I have stopped getting anything from it. I am now getting more from making my own decisions then seeing afterwards what was right and what was wrong. This should increase the number of hands I can play. I am going to change the 10k hands to 5k hands by the end of the 7 days of study.

Value bet or bluff? Bluff catching or slow play?
Looking over my database a lot of spots that I marked as unsure, was because I don't have a plan. I wouldn't think past the street I was on. I wasn't really considering if I was raising as a bluff, semi bluff, for value unless it was something obvious. This when I would loss money or miss value. I found playing against Snowie and analysing why Snowie has done something has helped me consider later streets. This has also been enforced with the reading and the KTU videos. Being confident in what I am doing will hopefully also help with my mental game. Advice I would give anyone struggling like I am, is if you don't know why you are calling/raising/betting then you should play it safe, then go and study. The more I read the more I feel I should have done this 7 days of study a few deposits ago as I was repeating the same mistakes and hoping for a different result.

Can't wait to get back on the tables. Good luck to those already out there!

Also have made a discord to try and get a few cash players together for support technical and mental So far only 3 of us, but message me if you are interested

Week 3 - 28/01/2017

Stats
Stats are a bit all over as withdrew all money from PokerStars before the account freeze, and now have deposited at partypoker as got a phone call offering 100% up to £30. So going to reset the stats, however not cleared database this time as hand a decent amount of hands on villains at PokerStars. Also if I keep wiping the slate clean it doesn't really count.

Start date: 27/01/2017
Start BR: $37.65
Last BR:$37.65
Current BR:$75.72
Profit/Loss: $38.07(+$6 unlocked bonus, $25 challenge. +$0.60 MTT)

bb/100 this week:0.04
bb/100 overall:0.04

Hands this week:15,336
Total hands:15,336

Overall graph

Thoughts on the week
7 days of study - Review
So I found the 7 days of study very difficult. Keeping motivation up was hard as there was no reward of playing poker. However I managed to get a good amount done, completing all of the KTU videos with notes. Watched some material on other sides. I also got further into "The Grinder's Manual" which is still the best book on poker that I have read. I also manged to get 5k+ hands played against Snowie. With a generally high rating, with most errors coming for the different in preflop opening (still think Snowie is too tight especially for NL2 where junk gets played on a daily).
Overall I am happy that I decided to take the time out. I would recommend it to anyone finding themselves just managing to stay break even at best.
Snowie did leave me a bit off balance when I went back into the NL2 pool as I had gotten use to have a thinking villain, which had more respect for bluffs. A good chunk of these I have cut out of my play for now as I think they weren't working as villains weren't thinking as deeply as Snowie does. I have also stopped adding any new concepts from other material for now, as I think they are getting above NL2/5 level, so me thinking them would be giving the villain more credit than he might deserve.

Study - Use it or lost it
So I spent the best part of the week reading and watching learning material, then when I came to play I found that I hadn't really improved at all. Was all the studying pointless? No. What the problem was that I would make all these notes and then not use them. The 1k hands I Played I was making mistakes all over and thinking "What do I do now" and then make the wrong decision. Then it hit me, I have notes on this exact situation why am I not using them. So now when I play I have my OneNote open with all my notes ready for use. This has really improved my play and drastically reduced the number of times that I get that "What do I do now" feeling. So the morale of the story is "if you make notes actually use them"

Challenge - Pocket pairs
So wasn't something that I was trying for until the last two 3 and 2.

The 33 I got with a nice set on the flop, but I just checked it through for the challenge. Had a few chances on the 22 but never got to showdown as people were betting and I had to fold. Then I completed in a blind v blind checked all the way through and my 22 won without improving

Sweating
So I have created the small discord channel for anyone interested in micro cash games. So far it has the massive number of 4 people One of them being PengiunThief (blog here https://forums.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?postid=2564999#post2564999 ). He let me watch him play for about an hour, and while I didn't really have much I could add hearing his thought process whilst playing was really helpful. It also showed me how impatient I can play, as I sometimes get bored and try and force things. Whereas playing patiently gets a much better result. Hopefully next time I will be able to give some helpful feedback.

Mid-week update
So saw "The Blog Job" promotion and thought would enter, so now I have to keep the blog going posting 3 times a week. With another self-inflicted rule of no twisting about EV/Run bad/Downswings/Acts of god etc etc. Everyone has a bad beat the have to tell, and no one wants to listen too. So redeposited $50, let's see if I can avoid spunking this away.

Stats
Start date: 11/01/2017
Start BR: $187 ($100 week 1 + $37 week 3 + $ $50 week 4)
Last BR: $50 (the redeposit)
Current BR: $62.52
Weekly profit/loss: $12.52 (so of it comes from the jack's or better promotion)
Net position: -$124.48 (Thought not going to wipe slate clean, but a true reflection of 2017)

bb/100 so far this week: 10.4
bb/100 overall: 10.4

Hands so far this week:5,500
Total hands:5,500

Graph since (30/01/2017)

Thoughts on the week
Discipline
As can be seen from all over my previous blogs, in times of tilt I lack discipline and end up spunking all of my bank roll away. The next day I feel like a dick and wish I had just stopped after the hand that made me tilt, rather than going on a kamikaze mission to "win back the losses" sometimes by playing higher stakes. Another problem is that I am quite comfortable with redepositing which means I don't have a great attachment to my bank roll in the first place.
So this time I have put a few things in place to try and stop me repeating history.
- I have set a deposit limit to $50/month via responsible gaming tab in pokerstars. (at least then I can only redeposit after a month so should feel me attached it my bank roll).
- I have set up a table limit of NL2 for now via responsible gaming tab in pokerstars. To increase this I have to wait 24 hours, this should stop spontaneous increases and shall only be done when I am ready to move up.
- Got tiltbreaker (or at least the trail version). This I have set with a session stop loss, a session time length, and a daily stop loss. I also use it after my last session of the day to block pokerstars until the next day just in case I get the urge to play later at night just out of boredom.
Hopefully all of that should help me not go broke for what must be the 6th time.

Bank roll management
As I seem to take losses quiet hard when they are a larger part of my bank roll (such as when I was playing 4 tables of NL5 with only $50 roll) I am going to be taking quiet a conservative bank roll management;

Probably a bit optimistic having NL25 in there. But as the quote goes;

Mental game - separate results from performance
In a bid to try and separate my results from my performance I have started recording how sessions scored in Snowie rather than if I was up or down. Before people protesting that Snowie might not be right, I am pretty certain it could trounce anyone in NL2 so it's not a bad thing to learn from. But saying that I some spots I do deviate if doing an exploitive play or because Snowie plays an extremely tight pre flop game. So after each session of live play and challenge Snowie, I mark down and review how many errors were made. I am hoping as time goes on I can reduces these down to just the spots where I chose to deviate from what Snowie would recommend or just spots where the EV difference is insignificant.

Goals

This is a daily checklist that I have. Some are tasks that I expect to complete every day and others are tasks I expect to complete a certain amount of times during the week (i.e. sport/gym is 3 times a week).

Best of luck on 2017! Will give this blog a follow.

I'm not sure how good a learning tool Snowie really is. The problem I see is that Snowie is basing it's plays on it's own range and if you don't have the same range in a spot the guidance it gives you will be wrong. If Snowie wants to xr a certain flop for value it will also xr that flop as a bluff, but if you don't even get to the flop with one of the combinations you're off balance.

Interesting Blog, gonna follow
Your BRM looks solid, hope ull grind through the Limits without having to reload one more time

Week 4 - 05/02/2017

Stats
Start date: 11/01/2017
Start BR: $187 ($100 week 1 + $37 week 3 + $ $50 week 4)
Last BR: $50 (the redeposit)
Current BR:$40.31
Weekly profit/loss:-$9.69
Net position: -$134.17

Hands this week:16,877
Total hands:16,877

Thoughts on the week
Graph break down.
So for the first 4k hands things seemed to be going well and I was making steady progress;

Then I had a period where I couldn't seem to do better than just break even for about 8k hands

Followed by me getting my ass kicked by tilt breaker(more on that later). Giving this for the total graph;

So what happened after 4k hands? I don't really know. I think maybe me studying/review wasn't as good a quality as for the first few days. Maybe I started to get too confident with my good progression? I have checked my main stats and they all seem relatively similar. I had planned to show a log of my score from Snowie for the different sessions but Snowie seems to have broken and not importing my hands, so will try again next week.
So what is the plan? I am going to try and get back to what I was doing for those 4k hands. Turn down the volume of play and make sure I complete all the study before playing, as my motivation to study is usually reduced once I start playing. Hopefully next week's graph will just be a larger version of the first 4k hands.

Tilt Breaker
So I am still using the tilt breaker and I think I will continue to. It can be frustrating at the time when it locks me out but later on I see it was the right idea. I have 3 rules set;
If play for 55 mins lock me out for 5 mins.
If down 3BI from peak of session lock me out for 1 hour.
If down 10BI from peak for the full day lock me out for the rest of the day.
So far I have hit all 3 rules at one point or another. But it has made sure I haven't gone broke, when I hit the 10BI in a day rule if I hadn't been locked out would probably have done my usually spewing behaviour.

Blame and control

As you might have seen from my other rantings in various threads, I really let variance get to me. However I think it is mainly because it is something that isn't me which I can blame for my performance as that is easier than blaming myself. As the quote says I can't change the wind (variance) but I can adjust my sails. In my case the sails currently needing the most adjusting would be my bad calls. These are the ones I know at the time are wrong, I even say I shouldn't call (sometimes out loud) yet I still do. When I compare these to the difference variance has made it is easy to see where the blame really lies.
EV difference: $8 (4BI)
Hands marked as bad calls: $34 (17BI)
Now even if EV stayed the same, if I had cut out the bad calls my graph would look very impressive indeed. Now I know sometimes you will call and be beaten in a cooler, but I have tried to keep these out of my bad call total. This was helped by checking the hands in Snowie, which also agreed that I shouldn't have called. If I also add the other mistakes Snowie picked up (not the tiny GTO ones) I could actually be doing really well. So who is to blame? Me. What can't I control? Variance. What can I control? Me. So lets do that.

HUD
I have updated my HUD a little bit since I last posted.

The main addition is the second panel with RFI for each position. This has come in very handy when in the blinds as some buttons were opening 100% over an ok sample. Another addition is 3bet vs hero, I added this during a session when I felt people were just 3betting me constantly and I wanted to prove to myself that this wasn't the case. However turned out for some people it was. One guy for 250 hands had an average 3bet of 4% but had 25% vs me, must have seen me as an easy target.

Headspace
After reading some blogs and a few videos that mention meditation as a good part of a poker warm up I downloaded an app mentioned in one of the videos called Headspace. So far I have done 4 days of the 10min meditation. Not sure if it is helping and still just practicing but I do get the idea of not having so many thoughts racing through your mind.

Goals

Pretty poor showing on all fronts for the goals this week. Energy levels feeling very low and lacking motivation really. Think could be to do with the graph going back to my normal of slowly decreasing, but really it is probably just a vicious circle and the graph is going down because I have stopped achieving my daily goals. Will try better next week, kind of need to start enjoying poker again really as currently it either bores me or angers me which isn't great.

Thoughts on the week

Get out of your own way

As I mentioned in my last post I seem to be the biggest problem in my game. For ages I had a very flat graph and couldn't think why... Then I had a eureka moment today, I just needed to get out of my own way. I noticed that every time I was 3bet, or raised on flop or bet into I took it personally. Thinking thoughts like, "don't think you are pushing me out of this pot" followed by a donk bet and a big loss. Same thing happened when there were flushes and straights on the board, I would think "don't try and bluff me" call and lose yet another big pot. The second I stopped taking everything so personally my results changed dramatically, and I found that I could remember all the studying I had been doing, and thinking much clearer about what the best line would be. Granted there is still a lot more work to do and I probably got some help from lady luck but look what it has done to my graph.

Now I am not going to start shooting up to the nosebleeds off two good sessions, but it really gave me that confidence boost and motivation I needed to keep trying.

Jacks or better
So even on days when I don't feel like playing I still try and play enough to complete jacks or better. Today I got a large (relative to my stakes win).

Not huge in real terms, but decent if you think of it as 0.5BI