[Closed] nl200 QQ OOP facing 3bet

this is such a common spot in FR. i am looking forward to dicussion here. tbh i usuaaly go on the safe side and fold preflop. Also his squeezing range might be looser than his normal 3b range.

hi, wanna share my inputs.

calling basically sucks here. unless you are balancing this range with monsters, your hand is face up. and playing your cards face up will get you exploited- villian can play without making a mistake, call/bet/fold eaily.

look at this flop, when you c/r AI for value, what hands do you get value from? AK? i dont even think that there's a board that we would be comfortable value betting other than the ones with a least a Q.

how about if we check call and hope he spews into us with his bluff range? sucks because he could check back his AK, and realise his equity and value bet when he is ahead. doubt he is the kind of player who will try to make you fold a better hand considering he's a 10/8 nit.
unless you intend to play call and try to check it down if miss set, i think best option here is to 4bet and get it in. he's not getting in with anything worse than QQ+ AK. and we have decent equity vs this range if called, and consider the times he folds his crap and we win dead $, this play is +EV.

really hate the idea of calling, though. it also gives u a more aggro image by backraising, and i guess that has some +EV s well?

yeah, fully agree with your points supeyrio. but we are just at the beginning of the analysis. that has many aspects and we prly need to do some math to find the best play (also need some assumptions prly). Atm, let me summarize + and - of 3 options we have here. (before I do that only quick reply to your face up consideration - is not our hand face up even if we 4bet? 4b means we have JJ+ AK anyway. If we call we can have more PPs in his view of our range imo).

FOLD preflop:
+ we don' t get isolated vs better range, play on the safe side and wait for better spot

- we fold so often vs worse hands (squeezers light) or flipping hands (we have 55% vs AK)
- it is weak and exploitable

4BET preflop
+ you have ok equity vs his (QQ+, AK) range
+ you don' t risk folding vs worse hands on Axx Kxx flops (he definitely Cbets 57s there)
+ you win the pot directly vs trash hands

- you extract less value from his worse hands, i.e. you don' t pick up his Cbet from bluffing range, AK etc. on small boards

CALL3b preflop
+ you save money vs his AA, KK, AK on Axx Kxx boards
+ you collect his Cbet on low boards (he Cbets all his trash hands and sometimes even AK)

- you end up folding the best hand on Axx and Kxx flop vs his trash hands that Cbet.

Assumptions we make:
He has 12combos of AA, KK that beat us
He has 16combos of AK. He Cbets low board 100% of the time (can we assume this?). He seems overaggro = bad, will prly Cbet.
He has 12 combos of AQ and he Cbets low board
He has 12 combos of "trash" suited connectors, suited one gappers etc

MATH WE NEED TO DO:
- What is the percentage that Axx and Kxx board will appear on board
- What is our equity w 4b preflop assuming he calls w 12combos of AA, KK, half of his AK combos (he can fold it) i.e. 8 AK combos, and folds his other hands. Btw this could be relatively simple but I can' t do it myself - noob Can some of you help?
- and the most difficult task what is our EV with call3b preflop and C/R flop line assuming that

(i) Axx and Kxx flop - we fold to his cbe
(ii) LOW flop - he Cbets and folds his worse hands (everything except AA, KK) to our C/R flop 100% of the time (in case of low board)
(iii) LOW flop - he Cbets and continues with AA, KK

lets ignore complicated situations where he hits his J9s, or where we hit our set etc. I' m just interested in how these BASIC scenarios play and look EV wise - because these simple lines will happen most of the time.

yep and we can compare this with EV of FOLD preflop as well

hey,

given all the info provided i like the line u took the most for all the reasons u ve mentioned urself. He is going to play perfectly vs calling line on these boards, but might make a mistake vs agression. U never know if he didnt sq AT,KT fe and now will stackoff.. but he would slow down considerably esp w his nitty image i guess if u call him.

his betsizing is rly stupid btw. It doesnt make any sense in the world to be betting that big esp ip on that dry of a board. U can be c/minr smaller bets (in order to get it in w this hand, to sometimes induce some lighter action, also- u want to have a c/minr bluffrange vs esp FR nits coz they just fold anything under an overpair and cannot play back) , but here c/r is already committing so it wont have any merit - ur perceived range compared to shoving doesnt rly change.

PF folding to me is abs out of question, but u have to believe in ur game a lot ofc and make tight folds on some even rly "safe" boards sometimes. If i know he is using this rly bad sizing as standard i would alw want to call pairs and attack his deadmoney agressively on boards like these. On the other hand- u run the danger that he uses diff betsizing as a classy nonthinking nitfest playing for rb for years. Then even on this F a fold is deffo coming to my mind sometimes, depending mainly on our image/dynamics. --> notes on nits abt their sizing in FR essential! Just calling would be an option to more agressive plrs and esp to lower betsizes. Here vs this person, calling for reasons u said, I rly dont like.

...

as it turns out he is just a paranoid clicker who hates to be bluffed- u played it the best vs these ppl. Shoving here w any pair on F will show a nice profit (his PF range is not pair heavy, but it seems like he just has b/c range here even w broadways + he ll fold sometimes sth and u just pick the big dead money he is creating for no reason) . Also slowplaying somewhat PF esp ip would be preferable vs him and widening 4bet bluffranges esp late postions coz i would assume his 3bet ranges would be extramerged and he ll hate his life a loooot.

thanks a lot, mate I structure my thinking process similar way.

On the other hand, I´d still appreciate if somebody math-talented could share the EV calculations to support our general feelings and the choice of lines.

Originally posted by Cornie4ever
thanks a lot, mate I structure my thinking process similar way.

On the other hand, I´d still appreciate if somebody math-talented could share the EV calculations to support our general feelings and the choice of lines.

nah.. i would count it for u if it was interesting, but u dont rly need math here at all if he called u w AK and this is his standard betsize (prolly w 100% his PF range).. the spot is just so ridiculously strongly +ev for u given the dead money, there are much much more valuable spots to do math on, esp where it branches in T agression for pfa's doublebarelling.

In this very hand (given his sizing on F which eases our situation a lot) the most important question is prolly PF rly. If u trust urself to play calling and going into some tough postflop lines or not. I am sure calling is undoubtedly the best for experienced plrs, but some will do better by folding prolly.

The math on this problem might start if he bets a lot less on F. Then its becoming a more difficult spot for us to play since we risk to isolate by raising. That's why i told u then u need to have a c/r bluffrange on those boards that u re attacking his range risking a lot less, putting him into a decision, which will ultimately lead him to widen his stackoff ranges, where again ur QQ will do ok here. Just make sure u feels it from u and u dont level urself into thinking nit ever gets out of his nitbox.

Overall u just need to know what gameplan u have vs these guys- play it safe, or play it so that u exploit them and then be the 1st one to adjust and strike back even when u will lose a stack here and there. Longrun u should abs opt for the 2nd. If u want to play the hand in vacuum, 1st is an option.