[Closed] Mathematical Error in SSS

gah... so much math in the morning isn't healthy... -_-

I think you have to give villain looser re-raising range, because many players don't respect shortstacks and simply play bad. Remember - the SSS is made by professionals over many many many hands and I guess they have made it idiot proof.

if he is tight then it is probably really best to fold but agains average opponent this range indeed isnt realistic.

EV = $2.15*33.654% - $2.00*66.346%
= $-.603359

The actual EV is (w/o blinds) $2.50*33.6% - $1.5*66.4%
Fold has zero EV
Range can vary from player to player, some players reraise TT+ AQ+, some JJ+ AK
You can figure it out, if you have some reads or statistics
otherwise, stick to the strategy and call

I like your attitude though, keep it up!

I think you have to give villain looser re-raising range, because many players don't respect shortstacks and simply play bad. Remember - the SSS is made by professionals over many many many hands and I guess they have made it idiot proof.

It's very important be skeptical of strategies you learn. You cannot just say it was made by math genius' so it's fool proof, there are plays that have to adapt and change, and there can even be mistakes. It's also important to do the research for yourself and change the strategy to your style of play and your strengths. So, for me, I think calling $1.50 is a mistake in this situation. If you like, you can continue doing it all you want, but im just trying to help you save some money, and if I'm wrong, what difference does it make, we understand the principals in the decision better.

Also, In order for this to be a profitable decision, you would have to put your opponent on any hand containing any combination ok J,Q,K and Aces, that you know they would 3-bet with (even hands like JQ, which some players don't even call with).

The actual EV is (w/o blinds) $2.50*33.6% - $1.5*66.4%
Fold has zero EV
Range can vary from player to player, some players reraise TT+ AQ+, some JJ+ AK
You can figure it out, if you have some reads or statistics
otherwise, stick to the strategy and call

I like your attitude though, keep it up!

Thanks, I agree with you even if I happen to be wrong, analysis this deep can only be a good learning possibility.

But I don't understand your EV calculation.
If you fold you lose a total of $0.50
If you call and you win, you get $2.00 + blinds (not inc. rake fee) how could you win more than $2.00 (not including dead money) if you only started with $2.00 and there was only one other player?
If you call and lose, you lose $2.00 total

And your Fold EV is not 0 because you are giving up your $0.50 which you can still protect, that is why it must be factored into the calculation.
**(unless you meant $1.50 in which case EV it would be even worse $-0.49 vs $0.00 because the extra $0.50 you save isn't factored in)

Reads wont really help unless you know that they 3-bet with small suited connectors, but even still, pushing with TT should only be done with extreme caution, and should not be a general rule because re-re-raising is generally done with JJ+, AK+ so it really shouldn't be the standard play.

Originally posted by Optroot

I think you have to give villain looser re-raising range, because many players don't respect shortstacks and simply play bad. Remember - the SSS is made by professionals over many many many hands and I guess they have made it idiot proof.

It's very important be skeptical of strategies you learn. You cannot just say it was made by math genius' so it's fool proof, there are plays that have to adapt and change, and there can even be mistakes. It's also important to do the research for yourself and change the strategy to your style of play and your strengths. So, for me, I think calling $1.50 is a mistake in this situation. If you like, you can continue doing it all you want, but im just trying to help you save some money, and if I'm wrong, what difference does it make, we understand the principals in the decision better.

I agree, seems like you know what you do. Keep it up and you'll be coaching with Xarry2

I play SSS now 10 days on NL0,10/0,20$ and palyed 15k hands. Not much but still i could make some notest about 33% players and if i know is (extremly) TAG is easy fold if i know he is LAG i push if i know he is fish i push aswell. eeven against TAG i push sometimes when i think he holds AQo or AQs or AKo or AKs.
Basicly even at SSS you have sometimes hard decision but we are only 20BB deep in game so thats why folding is not an option in SSS articles after you raise. I fold maybe 5% hands after reraise even when i hold KK and i have hunch villian have AA i can not fold especially with some dead money in pot(limpers). In 70% cases you are ahead with your range which makes SSS profitable.

I'm not an SSS expert, but I think you are seeing things a bit "wrong" Optroot

EV fold = 0, this is always the case, because if you fold you will not lose money, neither will you win money. It doesn't matter whether you already invested money in the pot or not. I don't really know how to explain this

The money you invested in the pot is also dead money, it comes from you, but you can't take it back so it's not relevant anymore. You only have 1.50 left and you can win his stack+the blinds+the 0.50 already in the pot.

And if the player reraises 99+ it changes your equity a lot, a lot more than when he 3-bets QJ. I also think 99 is a lot more likely to 3-bet than QJ or KJ for example.

Pushing TT is right in some circumstances, but this definately isn't a begginner's play. You must know the hand range of your opponent.

I'm not an SSS expert, but I think you are seeing things a bit "wrong" Optroot

EV fold = 0, this is always the case, because if you fold you will not lose money, neither will you win money. It doesn't matter whether you already invested money in the pot or not. I don't really know how to explain this

The money you invested in the pot is also dead money, it comes from you, but you can't take it back so it's not relevant anymore. You only have 1.50 left and you can win his stack+the blinds+the 0.50 already in the pot.

And if the player reraises 99+ it changes your equity a lot, a lot more than when he 3-bets QJ. I also think 99 is a lot more likely to 3-bet than QJ or KJ for example.

Of course you can take the $0.50 raise back, it goes into the pot and you win the pot??? Also they have to call that and they have to put an extra $0.50 in the pot. If you dont count it, the extra $0.50 you win from the pot seems to magically come from nowhere....?????

If you put your opponent on 99+ AJs+ and AQo+ you still don't have the odds to call, 45.3% win. So, honestly calling here is not something for begginers to do, it is simply more advanced, and should not be the standard play.

If you discount the $0.50 then you would end up with this:
WIN = 1.50 + .15 Blinds
LOSE = -1.50
FOLD = 0 (and EV = 0)

EV= 1.65*33.654% - 1.5*66.346%
EV= -0.439899 (which is still bad since we are comparing it to 0)

It's still bad unless you have greater than 46.7% chance to win.

(I hope it doesn't look like I'm arguing, im just confused because this maybe going way over my head, like way over... or not, I really don't know, so I just want to sort this out till it makes sense too me.)

WIN = 1.50 + .15 Blinds

WIN = 0.5 (your bet) + $2 (opponent's stack) + 0.15 blinds

WIN = 1.50 + .15 Blinds

WIN = 0.5 (your bet) + $2 (opponent's stack) + 0.15 blinds

You aren't really winning your 0.5 though, you just arn't losing it...
So in this case the pot is:
2.00 (mine) + 2.00 (his) + blinds
but we only win: 2.00(his) + blinds
the 2.00 stake is just returned to us and we are only up $2.15.

But, if we discount the $0.50 raise (which I still don't know why that should be done) then you win $1.50 + blinds following the same logic as above.

Optroot, Yoghi explained it before

you made a bet, money belong to the pot now
the fact that you still can act, doesn't make that money yours
they are in the pot and you can win them as a part of the pot