NL100 QQ 3bpot turn plan

Hi,

why are you cbetting flop? This is a standard x/c flop IMO. And your question on the turn kinda shows that, now you don't know what to do because you cbet flop with a hand that's not a clear value bet.

As played you have to call turn, you can't shove, that would be bad IMO, call and decide river.

Do you think it could be good option to cbet 20-30% pot size with TT-QQ, weaker Kx, 9x, KK and then c/x turn? This would induce raises, so we have enough good bluff catchers to call, also villian will float wide, and would have to fire wide on turn after check (all those hands that floated).
We can cbet standard size with good Kx+ on flop
Advantage of having so small bet size comparing to checking with those hands is to extract thin value, also we can then use at least some % of bluffs in balanced range (or if villian overfolds we can bluff each time this way, which I think happens with many regs). If we check, we cant use bluffs, but those bluffs would have to c/f flop.

How would you defend vs this strategy, when you face small cbet size and check on turn (how do you play with hands that missed board, bdfd, gutshots, 2nd pairs, Kx+?

I'm assuming you are talking in a general way agains regs in a 3bet pot right?

It's really though to answer those questions because it's something you never see.

Okay, I see 2 problems with betting small, the first is that I don't think we want villain to get the odds to call flop with Ax, and he should have a fair amount of those in most situations, it has okay equity given the odds and it has showdown value.

The other problem is that it is quite an hassle to construct three diferent ranges: bet small, bet big, x/c.

In villains shoes I would call flop with any pair, any GS, any Ax and on that board it's probably enough.

Turn, I would check back Ax, probably weak pairs and bet good Kx and draws. (Most back door flush draws have some sort of pair or GS, or A high for the most part).

I mean vs general reg with unknown frequencies.

Okay, I see 2 problems with betting small, the first is that I don't think we want villain to get the odds to call flop with Ax, and he should have a fair amount of those in most situations, it has okay equity given the odds and it has showdown value.

If I would play check (bet 0bb) with those hands isntead of bet small, you would get even better pot odds with Ax, weak pairs, gutshots? I assume vs check you would check back Ax, weak pairs? So it means I would loose value comparing to bet small?
Even if your Ax has correct pot odds vs e.g. TT, it doesnt mean that TT will loose money with small bet, or win less money comparing to check. TT has 76% equity vs AJ, AQ (your best Ax), so it means it is a value bet. IF we would have e.g. KQ, then you can say if you bet 5BB you win less money than standard bet size, but the difference is that KQ still have > 50% equity with standard bet size and can bet more streets for value, and TT can't bet standard bet size for value.

Also if I bet 5BB into 22BB pot, I need 18.5% FE, which means you should be defending at least 90% range on flop because I will bet so small with GS, bdfd, hands like AQ, AJ. Do you think it is realistic that you defend 90% range on board which favors my range? So it means you have to defend many very weak hands which are drawing dead vs my range, or to overfold flop.

The other problem is that it is quite an hassle to construct three diferent ranges: bet small, bet big, x/c.

By the way, I would not have here c/c and c/r range. The idea is to bet small the hands which I would otherwise c/r or c/c, which means I will have c/f range. On such a board it will be probably around 10-20% c/f range. If it would be board where our range doesnt hit that good, then it makes sense to check/call and check/raise.

It is more complicated, but actually not too much. Since my current standard c/c, c/r is balanced (at least the best I could do), then I simply cbet small all those hands from c/c, c/r.

Okay, but if you only bet small with weak value hand then it is not well balanced since you end up with a really weak capped range, so you would have to add some stronger hands to that range. And those stronger hands loose EV when betting small (at least I think they do).

So it's a question of weighting pros and cons of those strategies, but I don't think I can help you answering that.

I think you're the type of guy who would love to get in deep in that 2 volume book "Expert Heads up No Limit Holde'Em" by Will Tipton. It's probably the best GTO book around and he actually discusses in depth these type of questions you make. Have you read them?

Okay, but if you only bet small with weak value hand then it is not well balanced since you end up with a really weak capped range, so you would have to add some stronger hands to that range. And those stronger hands loose EV when betting small (at least I think they do).

I said also KK is in that group. We can add also few more AK so that it is nicely balanced. Well, also when you check 2nd pairs, weak Kx, you still need to protect it with few strong combos and loose value with those. Do we really loose value when we bet small on flop with KK and check turn? Villian anyway has only few strong hands like sets, 2 pair and he will anyway raise them and we play for stacks. Also he will likely raise with stronger Kx hands on flop and we play for stacks, or if he calls Kx on flop he will bet it on turn so c/c turn c/r river.

I think you're the type of guy who would love to get in deep in that 2 volume book "Expert Heads up No Limit Holde'Em" by Will Tipton. It's probably the best GTO book around and he actually discusses in depth these type of questions you make. Have you read them?

This book I didnt read, it will be the next I will read, thanks. I am currently reading Appliation of no limit Holdem from Janda, I like it a lot (only book I read in poker so far). I learned a lot from 2/3 from that book which I read already, so I will read all books I find interesting. Can you recommend some other books which you think are good?

Originally posted by GingerKid

Okay, but if you only bet small with weak value hand then it is not well balanced since you end up with a really weak capped range, so you would have to add some stronger hands to that range. And those stronger hands loose EV when betting small (at least I think they do).

I said also KK is in that group. We can add also few more AK so that it is nicely balanced. Well, also when you check 2nd pairs, weak Kx, you still need to protect it with few strong combos and loose value with those. Do we really loose value when we bet small on flop with KK and check turn? Villian anyway has only few strong hands like sets, 2 pair and he will anyway raise them and we play for stacks. Also he will likely raise with stronger Kx hands on flop and we play for stacks, or if he calls Kx on flop he will bet it on turn so c/c turn c/r river.

Hmm, KK alone is not enough for balance purposes. We should add some AK as well. Yeah, maybe we don't loose that much value, although villain should have a bunch of gutshot combos and that's relevant since we up those hands EV.

And regarding the check/call balance, that's true although I was gonna argue you don't need to balance that much, it's not like most villains will triple KT for value, so it does't really matter if you call down with AK or QQ. But that also aplies to that bet small situation

Thinking fresh about your betsize question. One reason to bet small flop would be to make villains really weak hands (very low equity agaist our overall range) be in a very akward spot. But I don't think this is the board where this proposition aplies, since a lot of villains range is either pair or guth shot or A high. Hence I don't see a point in betting small. Yes, 66-88/87s have a bad situation but that's a very small part of villains range.

Originally posted by GingerKid
This book I didnt read, it will be the next I will read, thanks. I am currently reading Appliation of no limit Holdem from Janda, I like it a lot (only book I read in poker so far). I learned a lot from 2/3 from that book which I read already, so I will read all books I find interesting. Can you recommend some other books which you think are good?

Apart from those two not really. Janda's book is a very nice introduction to GTOish play although it has a few mistakes. That from Will Tipton is very complex, be prepared, you have to read it with 100% focus and be ready to re-read some parts. But it's very interesting and a lot more accurate and deepful than Applications.

Thanks for the advices.

But I don't think this is the board where this proposition aplies, since a lot of villains range is either pair or guth shot or A high

Yes, the 9 is a bad card as it gives plenty of gutshots which he can float or raise +EV, and 3betor range usually doesnt have so many gutshots but many air hands. So probably K84 would be much better board, A94, etc. I think mono boards are also good for that, so in general, boards where his big part of range has big trouble calling even such a small bet?

Originally posted by GingerKid
Thanks for the advices.

But I don't think this is the board where this proposition aplies, since a lot of villains range is either pair or guth shot or A high

Yes, the 9 is a bad card as it gives plenty of gutshots which he can float or raise +EV, and 3betor range usually doesnt have so many gutshots but many air hands. So probably K84 would be much better board, A94, etc. I think mono boards are also good for that, so in general, boards where his big part of range has big trouble calling even such a small bet?

Yes, exactly.