AA villian donks on turn

No no, don't raise. You are essentially playing WA/WB (Well Ahead/Well Behind). In either case, the raise is bad.

Well I think his donk on turn is quite fishy

lol this is the first time i think ive seen Yohan this scared to go to war .. well its suited for him and his swedish vermin countrymen. always scared little cowards.

Raise turn is no question. question is whether you want to cap and/or raise river.

personally id insta raise/cap turn. then bet/call if he raises again. if he donks ill probably raise him again. expecting him to show a busted draw or Kx

pcbeem: have an english blog too ♦ I can't read what your blog says

Originally posted by Avataren
lol this is the first time i think ive seen Yohan this scared to go to war .. well its suited for him and his swedish vermin countrymen. always scared little cowards.

Raise turn is no question. question is whether you want to cap and/or raise river.

personally id insta raise/cap turn. then bet/call if he raises again. if he donks ill probably raise him again. expecting him to show a busted draw or Kx

pcbeem: have an english blog too ♦ I can't read what your blog says
There are few value hands that can reasonably donk that you beat. Why would he donk, say, AJ/JT here into two players? He is donking KJ/QT/J9 (which is actually reasonable 3-ways). He might also donk some combos of T8. You are behind any reasonable donking range - even if you include some Kx combos (that should have turned aggro on the flop). If he has picked up a weak draw (gutshot) and donks it, the raise is till bad because he might fold. You don't want that. Keeps his range wide and keep him bluffing (if that is what he is doing). A cap vs passive super-fish is super-spew.

I did have a look in the spoiler. Here is my comment:

An aside: If you are against a bluffy donk-aggro (not the present case) in this spot, consider raising the river if it pairs the :club:3. Now you beat all two pairs.

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by Avataren
lol this is the first time i think ive seen Yohan this scared to go to war .. well its suited for him and his swedish vermin countrymen. always scared little cowards.

Raise turn is no question. question is whether you want to cap and/or raise river.

personally id insta raise/cap turn. then bet/call if he raises again. if he donks ill probably raise him again. expecting him to show a busted draw or Kx

pcbeem: have an english blog too ♦ I can't read what your blog says
There are few value hands that can reasonably donk that you beat. Why would he donk, say, AJ/JT here into two players? He is donking KJ/QT/J9 (which is actually reasonable 3-ways). He might also donk some combos of T8. You are behind any reasonable donking range - even if you include some Kx combos (that should have turned aggro on the flop). If he has picked up a weak draw (gutshot) and donks it, the raise is till bad because he might fold. You don't want that. Keeps his range wide and keep him bluffing (if that is what he is doing). A cap vs passive super-fish is super-spew.

bollocks.. you can't assume hes only donking 2p+ or something that we don't beat. given that hes a major fish, his donks will NEVER be reasonable. He might accidentally do it where its a good play but that is definitely not what he thinks.. At these stakes you must realize call flop donk turn means just a pair or in this case Kx more often than 2 pair. if it was 2 pair he would wait until river to donk and or raise ..

he would donk AJ/JT because hes a noob and he doesn't know how to get value or bluff successfully.

regarding your spoiler

Spoiler

This is not what you call a slowplay AK. This is a standard line for fish, they call 1 time and thinks you won't bet turn as you now are scared therefor he donks and if you raise all the much better he will raise you again.. is his reasoning behind call flop / donk turn. and not raising preflop is normal for these kinds of fish, they are calling to see if they hit K or A they dont get that raising preflop is good they only care about hitting pairs or better right off the bat.

So what range do you give him?

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by Avataren
lol this is the first time i think ive seen Yohan this scared to go to war .. well its suited for him and his swedish vermin countrymen. always scared little cowards.

Raise turn is no question. question is whether you want to cap and/or raise river.

personally id insta raise/cap turn. then bet/call if he raises again. if he donks ill probably raise him again. expecting him to show a busted draw or Kx

pcbeem: have an english blog too ♦ I can't read what your blog says
There are few value hands that can reasonably donk that you beat. Why would he donk, say, AJ/JT here into two players? He is donking KJ/QT/J9 (which is actually reasonable 3-ways). He might also donk some combos of T8. You are behind any reasonable donking range - even if you include some Kx combos (that should have turned aggro on the flop). If he has picked up a weak draw (gutshot) and donks it, the raise is till bad because he might fold. You don't want that. Keeps his range wide and keep him bluffing (if that is what he is doing). A cap vs passive super-fish is super-spew.

If hes donking KJ why hes not donking flop? You can't assume hes donking range is monsterheavy/bluffheavy/drawheavy unless you got READS. If not you should use standard line as default- and that is raise turn/calldwon if 3beted. END of discussion, END of Story, stop telling your bullshit strategy around. And i give him 100% donkbet turn range, now try to argue why villain is not doing that.

I see it as a call turn and then raise the river. Raising turn is an option aswell, but i like raising the river more. His range will propably be close to random since he is a recreational player, he might be donking something like gutshot, flashdraw, straight draw, any pair even an A hi. Of course he will have some value hands better than we have, but i think they are a lot less likely => we should be ahead equity wise. Also its always better to save your aggression on later street + since he has low WTSD just let him do the betting on the river. If he is bluffing you will get one extra BB on the river and if he has a pair and willing to bet it on the river hes most likely not folding to a raise. I just see some missed value in this hand.

So my line would be call the turn and raise / fold pretty much every river. ( might be thinking just calling on the Q or T on the river )

Originally posted by ambitny

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by Avataren
lol this is the first time i think ive seen Yohan this scared to go to war .. well its suited for him and his swedish vermin countrymen. always scared little cowards.

Raise turn is no question. question is whether you want to cap and/or raise river.

personally id insta raise/cap turn. then bet/call if he raises again. if he donks ill probably raise him again. expecting him to show a busted draw or Kx

pcbeem: have an english blog too ♦ I can't read what your blog says
There are few value hands that can reasonably donk that you beat. Why would he donk, say, AJ/JT here into two players? He is donking KJ/QT/J9 (which is actually reasonable 3-ways). He might also donk some combos of T8. You are behind any reasonable donking range - even if you include some Kx combos (that should have turned aggro on the flop). If he has picked up a weak draw (gutshot) and donks it, the raise is till bad because he might fold. You don't want that. Keeps his range wide and keep him bluffing (if that is what he is doing). A cap vs passive super-fish is super-spew.

If hes donking KJ why hes not donking flop? You can't assume hes donking range is monsterheavy/bluffheavy/drawheavy unless you got READS. If not you should use standard line as default- and that is raise turn/calldwon if 3beted. END of discussion, END of Story, stop telling your bullshit strategy around. And i give him 100% donkbet turn range, now try to argue why villain is not doing that.

once again i love you ambitny ♦ Though im quite annoyed you've gained money on me again. You used to be my personal ATM ♦ (n1ghtahh here if you don't remember my sn)

I agree with you here. Its in my experience a lot of recs does call flop donk turn a lot with a variety of hands. I see most often a type of draw or Kx on this board and player.

Originally posted by YohanN7
No no, don't raise. You are essentially playing WA/WB (Well Ahead/Well Behind). In either case, the raise is bad.

btw its Way Ahead/Way Behind. not Well ♦

Originally posted by ambitny

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by Avataren
lol this is the first time i think ive seen Yohan this scared to go to war .. well its suited for him and his swedish vermin countrymen. always scared little cowards.

Raise turn is no question. question is whether you want to cap and/or raise river.

personally id insta raise/cap turn. then bet/call if he raises again. if he donks ill probably raise him again. expecting him to show a busted draw or Kx

pcbeem: have an english blog too ♦ I can't read what your blog says
There are few value hands that can reasonably donk that you beat. Why would he donk, say, AJ/JT here into two players? He is donking KJ/QT/J9 (which is actually reasonable 3-ways). He might also donk some combos of T8. You are behind any reasonable donking range - even if you include some Kx combos (that should have turned aggro on the flop). If he has picked up a weak draw (gutshot) and donks it, the raise is till bad because he might fold. You don't want that. Keeps his range wide and keep him bluffing (if that is what he is doing). A cap vs passive super-fish is super-spew.

If hes donking KJ why hes not donking flop? You can't assume hes donking range is monsterheavy/bluffheavy/drawheavy unless you got READS. If not you should use standard line as default- and that is raise turn/calldwon if 3beted. END of discussion, END of Story, stop telling your bullshit strategy around. And i give him 100% donkbet turn range, now try to argue why villain is not doing that.

The villains stats and the board is given. Based on that I assign a range. Your brain apparently stops working at "he donked, I raise". You probably didn't even notice it is 3-handed and that the board admits a straight and should have hit your range pretty well. Not exactly the spot where a passive fish donks third pair as standard.

Originally posted by Necromadx
I see it as a call turn and then raise the river. Raising turn is an option aswell, but i like raising the river more. His range will propably be close to random since he is a recreational player, he might be donking something like gutshot, flashdraw, straight draw, any pair even an A hi. Of course he will have some value hands better than we have, but i think they are a lot less likely => we should be ahead equity wise. Also its always better to save your aggression on later street + since he has low WTSD just let him do the betting on the river. If he is bluffing you will get one extra BB on the river and if he has a pair and willing to bet it on the river hes most likely not folding to a raise. I just see some missed value in this hand.

So my line would be call the turn and raise / fold pretty much every river. ( might be thinking just calling on the Q or T on the river )

This is what I suggested above as well versus a donk-aggro (if this is your assessment of the player in question, AF 0.8 WTSD 31 over 200+ hands doesn't point in this direction; the dude seems tight postflop ;)). Raise a good river, the best river is when the board makes a small pair.

Yohan just so you know ambitny is a much better player than you

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by Necromadx
I see it as a call turn and then raise the river. Raising turn is an option aswell, but i like raising the river more. His range will propably be close to random since he is a recreational player, he might be donking something like gutshot, flashdraw, straight draw, any pair even an A hi. Of course he will have some value hands better than we have, but i think they are a lot less likely => we should be ahead equity wise. Also its always better to save your aggression on later street + since he has low WTSD just let him do the betting on the river. If he is bluffing you will get one extra BB on the river and if he has a pair and willing to bet it on the river hes most likely not folding to a raise. I just see some missed value in this hand.

So my line would be call the turn and raise / fold pretty much every river. ( might be thinking just calling on the Q or T on the river )

This is what I suggested above as well versus a donk-aggro (if this is your assessment of the player in question, AF 0.8 WTSD 31 over 200+ hands doesn't point in this direction; the dude seems tight postflop ;)). Raise a good river, the best river is when the board makes a small pair.

the only thing you suggested is calling down as you were scared of his donking range.

Yes, he is a better player. You are too. Everybody is better. Especially those who thinks that FLHE is a penis-measuring contest. Who will make the loosest raises and re-raises? Remember where you advocated 3-beting A7o from the small blind versus a tight HJ open (because they are soooo bad at thit limit)? Now you say cap turn and bet river here.

No, I did suggest raising river. I quote myself:

An aside: If you are against a bluffy donk-aggro (not the present case) in this spot, consider raising the river if it pairs the :club:3. Now you beat all two pairs.

To re-iterate, you are up against a player that has an AF of 0.8 and a WTS of 33% over 235 hands. These are characteristics of a player that is tight postflop.

So Ava, what range do you put him on? Your friend with the analytic brain gave him 100%. What do you give him? Exactly pairs? How convenient! That is precisely what you beat. You are also sure that he will 3-bet those so you can cap. How marvelous

As far as your "they wait til the river with 2 pair+" goes, yes, this is often true when they are heads-up and in position. Rarely 3-handed OOP. They don't want you checking back on turn (which of course YOU wouldn't ever do because they are soooo bad).

Calling that turn donk-bet is too nitty. You should definitely raise.

Originally posted by DarkLuxor
Calling that turn donk-bet is too nitty. You should definitely raise.

Perhaps, but none of you have produced a viable range with which a postflop tight player is donking here against which a raise is profitable. I don't consider Avataren's range (he donks if and only if he is beaten) viable. Fish don't necessarily hate money, and donking weak pairs makes little sense. Not all fish get everything wrong, and the tightness of this one (WTS=36) indicates he usually has more than air when donking here. Then if he has air, what good does raising do? He'll just fold. You need to find more one-pair combos and strong draws than 2 pair+ combos (with a margin) in order for a turn raise to be profitable. You can also always raise a good river.

Here is a sample range against which raising turn is good but marginal:

Board: K♣9♦3♣ J♥
       Equity     Win     Tie
MP2    55.25%  54.89%   0.36% { AdAc }
SB     44.75%  44.40%   0.36% { KK+, JJ, 99-77, ATs+, K9s+, K3s, QTs+, J9s, T9s, JcTc, Qc8c, Jc8c, Tc8c, 9c8c, Qc7c, Jc7c, Tc7c, 9c7c, 8c7c, Qc6c, Jc6c, Tc6c, Qc5c, Qc4c, AKo, AJo, KJo+, K9o, QTo, J9o, T8o, 98o }

He is bluffing liberally, like 40 combos of 141, and also donking typical x/c hands.

According to his stats he seems to be too passive to raise the Turn and quite likely that he donks out QT. so i just call down too!