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2nd bar GS vs short fish?

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SPeedFANat1c
Joined: 04.01.2009

iPoker - €0.20 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 21.75 BB
SB: 78.25 BB
BB: 153.85 BB
Hero (UTG): 103.5 BB
MP: 104.65 BB
CO: 240.25 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J♥ A♣

Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (7.5 BB, 2 players) T♣ 8♠ T♥
Hero bets 5.25 BB, BTN calls 5.25 BB

Turn: (18 BB, 2 players) K♥
Hero bets 18 BB, BTN calls 13.5 BB

River: (45 BB, 2 players) 4♥

Spoiler

Hero shows J♥ A♣ (One Pair, Tens)
(Pre 58%, Flop 2%, Turn 0%)
BTN shows T♦ Q♦ (Three of a Kind, Tens)
(Pre 42%, Flop 98%, Turn 100%)
BTN wins 42.75 BB
Hero wins 4.5 BB

58/7, fcbet 61 (31), afq 31/42/52, 169h

flop I cbet light cause he folds a lot.

Turn on one hand - once he folds on flop a ton, his range on turn is stronger. But still there is some hands which he might call flop even with 60 fcbet flop.

The problem might be like if he calls flop with 8x, he might be calling turn also because he is short. Was not sure, just bet cause if case its a mistake, will not loose big, have equity vs hands like 8x, I guess not so low.


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8 replies
la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Vs 100bb stack this would be ok play. You could cbet the flop there since you have 2 overs, any 9 gives you a OESD and any K or Q gives you a gutshot. But we have to remember that the board is paired.. Then you could fire OTT too when you improve your hand, you would have some fold equity and actual equity.

BUT since the villain is super short and you have A high with backdoors on the flop I think it would be best to just check. With his stack size there is a risk he shoves with a wide range and you just can't call a shove. Also in case he calls your flop bet he is never giving up OTT with 13BB left.

The problem with looking at fold to cbet stat is that I believe he can change his playing style according to his stack size.. If he started with full stack he might fold a lot but when he has only very little left he will start shoving a lot.


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Mozzek
Joined: 16.07.2016

From my experience it´s good to cbet against fish (usually and esp with this f to cbet). But whe fish calls, I don´t think we can make him fold anyhow - maybe 3 barreling/shoving somewhere, but that doesn´t simply worth the risk.

Actually I don´t think it really matters if he is short stack or not, because he is fish, they just don´t give a damn about their stacks. For example I made fold fish OTR, when he had 2BB left and in the pot was about 50BB. WTF right? But yeah, this is extreme, but I´ve seen simillar things happening a lot.

So, to sum up. I would cbet there as well, but then give up, because the fact fish calls, means he has something and (most likely) not giving it up.

What do you think guys? Btw my opinion is based on my experience, so you might find it wrong, however I´ve found it work.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

I do not like the play. Villain can call with a PP. We can check flop.


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Alleen86
Joined: 27.05.2010

If we have a read that he folds alot to flop cbets, I don't mind a cbet, but I would check by default vs a shortstack (probably fold vs a bigger bet). Not sure can we check/call this flop? As played, I think I would check/fold the turn because even though K might be a scared card, his range is strong when he calls the flop and I don't expect to have a fold equity.

Another option vs a fish would be to cbet the flop small imo. We could be called by worse + we could make him fold the equity he has with worse hands.


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Hesticus
Joined: 24.06.2008

If villain is fit-or-fold, then I'd bet the flop and x/c OTR.


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SPeedFANat1c
Joined: 04.01.2009

But we have to remember that the board is paired..

it is paired, but what did you want to say?


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

You have a decent hand because you have overcards and you can improve your hand on later streets. But I'm not sure if our backdoors are that great because the board is paired. This means that full houses will beat our made straight and we actually have some reverse implied odds too.
So basically our hand would be better if the board wasn't paired.


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MisterSnS
Joined: 09.11.2011

You say, that Villain folds a lot on the flop. Therefore you bet the flop to expect a high frequency of folds.

Now... what is the conclusion of this regarding to the turn?

His callingrange will most likely not fold. I mean ok, you picked up a gutshot and it makes sense to barrel sometimes. But vs. someone who folds a lot on the flop, this can be a nice check on the turn and maybe an overbet on the river if it goes check/check.


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