Skip to forum
Notifications
Clear all

109 wccop 2nd chance

16 Posts
5 Users
0 Reactions
1,499 Views
TUFATIFA
Joined: 13.05.2008

No Limit Holdem Tournament
PokerStars
8 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com
$100+$9

Stacks:
UTG (8,006) 10bb
UTG+1 (55,076) 69bb
MP1 (24,203) 30bb
MP2 (21,345) 27bb
CO (20,100) 25bb
BTN (27,901) 35bb
SB (14,513) 18bb
Hero (BB) (31,087) 39bb

Blinds: 400/800 Ante 100

Pre-Flop: (2,000, 8 players) Hero is BB
UTG goes all-in 7,906, UTG+1 calls 7,906, 5 folds, 7106 to Hero (30287)?

The UTG palyer 24/16 in 95 hands ( he has a open raise from Ep higher that LP)
The UTG Player 24/22 in 59 hand and i had him as a LAG competent player.

What are the best options here?


Reply
Quote
15 replies
chenny8888
Joined: 03.10.2007

Hi all,

All-in is best, villain's call range there is uncapped IMO and is at least 99+ AQ+. JJ is doing well enough against that range to shove.


Reply
Quote

Agreed, but I do think this is a spot where balance is unnecessary. I'd probably min 3b and get it in on any flop to keep spaz range widest and flipping range tightest


Reply
Quote
chenny8888
Joined: 03.10.2007

Originally posted by Semesa
Agreed, but I do think this is a spot where balance is unnecessary. I'd probably min 3b and get it in on any flop to keep spaz range widest and flipping range tightest

Dislike, I think he can peel profitably against our JJ, especially if our plan is to get it in on every flop. And then if we want to keep spaz range in and min3bet with AA, it really sucks because then we have absolutely no bluffs.

So I guess I'm arguing balance does matter here.


Reply
Quote

10bb + 19bb + 19bb + 2.5bb(ante + blinds) = 50.5bb OTF(roughly 30bb main pot 20bb side pot)

So we will have a 1.8 SPR to the side pot and a 0.6 SPR to the main pot with us first to act after the flop and literally jamming blind.

Yeah... he can profitably peel, we can more profitably make him fold AK/AQ though since we get 20bb side pot without show down 2/3 times.

Also, he would literally need to have pokerstove open and be able to range us faster than his timebank wears down for him to actually play this hand profitably. There are just way too many variables and pots for him to calculate and play it even slightly +ev.


Reply
Quote
TUFATIFA
Joined: 13.05.2008

Hi,

I Equilab it and the results against the ranges pre flop are:

pt.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Vencer Empatar
UTG 24.14% 22.43% 1.71% { 77+, AJs+, KQs, AJo+ }
UTG+1 46.99% 45.50% 1.49% { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
BB 28.87% 28.52% 0.35% { JJ }

If we push pré flop i don't think that is folding AK there because his stack ( he can afford to call there).

The 68 combinations he is folding there 50% of his range (AQ+, JJ-99).

If he his hidden behind the bushes we are reduced to a low equity for making the push.

So is my think of this could be a marginal spot wrong?

In other words we can avoid the variance of the game by folding.

Knowing that in any flop it will appear 52% of the times one overcard to the flop it is wrongs to make the call?

There is some possibilities of going check down or even shoving/check call in any flop that bring us an overpair.

Regards,


Reply
Quote

Yep, any of those are a better option than either jamming or folding.

Its just that looking at this spot from an "ABC" players point of view, it seems to be easy, either you should jam, or you should fold.

By taking just a bit of extra time to look deeper, you can find a line that is absurdly more profitable than either. You just need to think outside of the box.


Reply
Quote
TheRebuz
Joined: 12.10.2008

Originally posted by chenny8888
Hi all,

All-in is best, villain's call range there is uncapped IMO and is at least 99+ AQ+. JJ is doing well enough against that range to shove.

i say smth like 66/77+,AQ+

when all that said i prefer semesa line to 3 bet to like 12-15k and shove every flop cos we r first to act

also i like just flat line and play post flop (with intention to fold on almost any flop if villains bet)


Reply
Quote

Is there much argument vs only calling?


Reply
Quote
chenny8888
Joined: 03.10.2007

Going to do the math on this tomorrow.

Couple assumptions that should be checked:

We c/f any board with an overcard K or A.
We c/c one street on T and Q high boards.
How do we play on 9 high boards?
How do we play vs smaller betsizes?


Reply
Quote
chenny8888
Joined: 03.10.2007

Doing this over skype with a friend of mine.

31% of the time we flop an overpair (just an overpair) on a NON-T high board.

12% of the time we flop a set.

38% of the time there is ONE ace king or queen on the board (AND we don't have a set).

11.4% of the time it comes T high.

7% of the time there is more than one overcard on the board.

SO:

12% of the time we're very happy to get all the money in (almost always, we may not be going broke on AKJ, KQJ type boards BUT there are few combos of those given card removal).

31% of the time we're OK getting more money in.

11.4%+38%/3 = 24% of the time we call 1 street.

38 * 2/3 + 7 = 32.3% of the time we check/fold.

More coming later, stay tuned!


Reply
Quote

What range are you putting villain on that makes you think middle pair isn't good enough to get in with 0.6 SPR?


Reply
Quote
chenny8888
Joined: 03.10.2007

Originally posted by Semesa
What range are you putting villain on that makes you think middle pair isn't good enough to get in with 0.6 SPR?

?? Not sure if serious, he's got 99+ AQ+ but if he's any good he's not going to bluff us postflop, and assume the same about our range. Consequently I don't think putting in the remaining 23k chips against his continuing range will be good... in fact it will have some SERIOUS reverse implied odds implications :p.


Reply
Quote

Originally posted by Semesa
Agreed, but I do think this is a spot where balance is unnecessary. I'd probably min 3b and get it in on any flop to keep spaz range widest and flipping range tightest

15k you mean?

This is the hand we were discussing on skype yeah? Most of the debate(in this thread) was just based on miscommunication. Out of interest, what do you think of the line I suggested now?


Reply
Quote
chenny8888
Joined: 03.10.2007

Let's compare shoving to min3betting, shoving every flop. Let's assume a couple things about our opponent's range: he is calling preflop with 99+ AQ+, and he is calling a shove with 99+ AK (IMO he is committed with any pair if we have AK in our range, and he should know this!). He is shoving JJ+ AK vs our min3bet, and call/calling our min3bet/flop shove with 99/TT and AQ.

There is a side pot once we have min3bet, and thus it probably is worth fighting over and shoving. We assume we are shoving EVERY FLOP.

We should look at whether we make any money from our opponent calling more hands against our shove.

99/TT (12 combos): we stack 99/TT around 60% of the time. We get it in on average with about 80% equity IMO against this hand.

AQ (16 combos): we get it in against this hand around 35% of the time postflop. We average around 10%*87.5% + 96%*12.5% = 20.8% of the equity. Rest of the time he folds.

So of these extra combinations of hands we get action from,

6/28 of the time we get an extra 7106 chips 40% of the time (+775 cEV). The remaining 60% of the time, we get an additional 23181 chips in with around 80% equity (+2276 cEV). We need to compare this to the cEV we have when we get it in preflop against these hands (6/28 of the time we are getting in 23181 chips with 81.8% equity, +3159 cEV).

16/28 of the time, we get an extra 7106 chips 65% of the time (+3359 cEV). The remaining 35% of the time, we get an additional 23181 chips in with around 20.8% equity (-3446 cEV).

Seems like with our assumptions, shoving preflop is slightly better than min3betting, and pushing every flop: we fold out worse hands too often against 99/TT on boards, and against AQo our reverse implied odds are a bit too bad.

//edit: did this at 630am with some basic assumptions. Please query me about any math questions!!


Reply
Quote
chenny8888
Joined: 03.10.2007

Calling vs shoving is yet to be analysed by the way. It is by far the hardest one to do!


Reply
Quote