98o [PUBLIC COACHING SESSION ONLY HU POT WE HAD]

with your GSSD actually i like your decision to continue. There can be some question about whether to call or raise.

given your call betting the river is a great decision. this is one of the worst looking river cards for your flop peel range.

Yeah but why raise ? isnt that a bit too aggressive ? and given that its a horrible card. wont that make the decision to bet even better since it most likely is bad for you aswell (what did you have btw?)

check/calling or check/raising or using a mixed strategy, all perfectly fine options.
river is a mandatory bluff bet. overall this hand looks completely standard to me

lovely then i actually for once did something decent in my life

Hi!

Yap I also think is played played fine. Turn checkback is good, I kindda dont like his check in the first place unless he is playing c/f but even then its not so easy. River is a perfect spot to take it away since he should be folding pretty much all his range.

Only thing is flop and my default would actually be to c/r.Thing is that he has a lot of hands he will have a hard time calling down(Qx,Ax) and there are quite a few fake cards that will make him fold (diamonds,4). Nothing too bad with just call though,especially if oponent likes to check turn a lot.

Could someone from the c/c party explain me why they think it is even acceptable to c/c out of position with 9 hi on a board where we lack natural bluffing hands? What's our plan on the turn? Thanks.

Originally posted by madorjan
Could someone from the c/c party explain me why they think it is even acceptable to c/c out of position with 9 hi on a board where we lack natural bluffing hands? What's our plan on the turn? Thanks.

I think we have about 7 outs there, so c/c doesn't look that bad as far as I see. I would have gone for a c/r as well, but I think it's pretty close. I see the turn problem when we hit one of our tainted outs, like a 9 or an 8. What would you have done, Avataren, if the turn was, say, a 9:s?

hmmm,who said about us c/c turn? If we take this line we should fold turn and that is one other benefit of raising the flop,which is that we prevent ourselves from getting pushed of when we actually do have 10 outs.

i would have bet again and then checked river. in response to jleitmotivs question.

Hi!

Well if we hit 9 or 8 I think its much harder if we c/c than if we c/r.
If we c/r flop then hit 8/9 turn we go for a valuebet.If we dont get raised we have a pretty easy river valuebet since he never has Kx+,therefore only few pockets has us beat. If we get raised we should call once for we have huge amount of outs (since his by far most likely hand is strong pair) with good implied odds and then reevaluate river. Its totally fine to fold it since we are at the bottom of our valuerange and we will have a lot of Kx here to calldown+rebluffs from MP3 on such board are not very frequent occurance.

And...

if we go for c/c flop then hitting 8,9 turn makes it another obvious c/c. Problem with this line is that it gains us 0 info and it lets him control the hand. He may just be betting for value there and then we are in much worse shape. And we will face the same problem on the river.

By default its a standard calldown since he could even be valuebetting a worse hand(like A7s,66,88 if we hit 9) and bluffs like T9,JT,T8s,are always there.

[Lots of new posts since I begun writing this.]

The line check-call flop check-call turn, fit or fold river is an easy mathematical loser. You need 10:1+ for a gutshot, so the flop call is bad if you intend to make an even worse call on the turn if you miss.

The line check-call flop, fit or fold turn, is marginally better, since, with implied odds, we get closer to 10:1 (but not anywhere close enough to "peel one").

Therefore, to not fold on the flop, we need a plan. This plan must include one hell of a lot of successful bluffing to compensate for the bad pot odds.

Suppose our opponent c-bets 100/70, then we will get a chance to donk-bluff on 30% of the rivers. I see how this could compensate for, assuming 100% sucessful bluffs, the 70% of the hands where we don't bluff. The big problem with this play is that a check-behind on the turn can mean showdown value, so i wouldn't count on 100% success there.

Check-calling on the flop and check-raising on the turn is dangerous business. It's frequently successful, but expensive when it doesn't work. Sometimes it doesn't work because we get a check-behind.

What I am saying is that starting with a check-call puts us in a situation where we will have to bluff too much (successfully) and fold too much on later streets. Also, value bets with an 8 or 9 are shaky. I'd check-fold on a rainy day and check-raise on a sunny day. Only on a cloudy day, I'd check-call.

/Johan =

Originally posted by YohanN7
I'd check-fold on a rainy day and check-raise on a sunny day. Only on a cloudy day, I'd check-call.

/Johan =

So being British that's 80% x/f, 5% x/r and 15% x/c

Originally posted by Boomer2k10

Originally posted by YohanN7
I'd check-fold on a rainy day and check-raise on a sunny day. Only on a cloudy day, I'd check-call.

/Johan =

So being British that's 80% x/f, 5% x/r and 15% x/c

Not at all. You get to choose your own weather from any member of the British commonwealth of Nations. After all, wasn't that the original idea ♦?
/Johan =

Well for flopcall you obviously have more than 4 outs and chance that he will check behind on turn. I would say you need about 4-5 clean outs which is standard for being OOP HU. Having a strong guthshot and 8,9 which are definatelly worth something calling must be better than folding. Therefore calling is certainly a +EV action.I also think that raising is a +EV action and is prolly about same as calling .... so yes balancing these on sunny/rainy wether is fine(its about 70/30 in Slovenia

If we c/c flop then c/c with a gutshot gets much worse indeed and is most likely already a looser but again we have more than 4 clean outs. Our oponent may easily doubleshot his QJ,QT,JT,some Ahigh so I would say we have around 7 outs here on average. Imo its a really marginal call/fold spot but I lean toward folding as we are not really folding that much when we take c/c on this flop I guess

Dawnfall26 -

What you are saying is that its fine to c/c flop and if he had bet again on turn we would have to decide on whether or not to c/c again or c/f where you lean towards c/f ?

How about throwing in a check-raise when the turn card card might give additional outs? A card like J could mean about a million extra outs. (Or am I misreading the board again? I'm tired...)

EDIT: I've been trying to think about this, and instead of making a fool of myself by presenting calculations of any kind, I'll present another speculation (still making a fool of myself). Suppose that the GTO play is X. Suppose that the EV-maximizing play versus a given opponent type is Y. (Of course, it may be that X = Y.) I think that it is possible that a just a small deviation of our opponent from GTO can mean that EV(Y) differs considerably from EV(X), just as is the case when considering bet-folding, check-calling, check-folding on the river, where our own deviation from GTO (exploitation) can have a pretty big influence on EV.

/Johan =

Hi!

Well to make it clear, my preffered line is to c/r flop. On this flop I would c/r all Kx,a lot of pockets,strong 7x and also all monsters(these combos are in huge amounts). I would also c/r some FDs,SDs where this one seems extremy good to me since it quite likely that it is drawing pretty well(more than 4 outs) and at the same time enjoys advantage of fake turn outs(like diamonds or 4). If we were raising strictly just FD and OESD then its not that hard for a good oponent to play vs us since he can be folding a lot of marginal hands,especially since our valuerange is so huge and our draws so strong. When we add a few airballs or gutters we force him to either calldown more or make bad folds.

c/c with intention to prolly c/f turn unimproved is my intention yes if we go for this line.Sure there are quite a few cards that will make us c/c again. About turn c/r on scarry cards we again encounter problem of balance. How often are we gonna do this with strong hands(if you do it often then do it with some bluffs as well),otherwise I dont like it that much especially since if turncard is ugly our oponent will not just double barrell everything but might preffer to checkback a lot which makes his bet much stronger