Thinking about ranges - mental exercises

This is the following hand - [SH] NL25 K9s 3bet pot, turn spot - check/raise for value?.

Same assumption as before:
- Villain is an aggressive NL25-50 reg.

PREFLOP BB 3bet vs CO range
AA-JJ, 44-22, AKo, AKs-AQs, A5s-A4s, K9s, Q9s, T8s, 97s, 87s-86s, 76s-75s, 65s-64s, 54s – 8.6%

FLOP – 4:h 9:s K:c (97 combos)
Value betting range: AA(6), AKo(9), K9s(3) = 18
Draw betting range: A4s(3), Q9s(3), 97s(3), 64s(3), 54s(3) = 15
Bluffing range: (with BDFD) A5s(3), T8s(3), 87s-86s(6), 76s-75s(6), 65s(3) = 21
Total combos bet: 54 (CBet – 56%)

Total combos checked: 43
Check-raising range: -
Check-calling range: AKs(3), KK(3), QQ-JJ(12), 44(3), with BDFD AQs(3) = 24
Total combos of checks defended: 24 (56%)

Analysis: Value betting range includes OPs, oTPTK (off suit) and 2pairs. Draw betting range contains all weak draws (weak pair) and bluffing range will include all other hands with no showdown value but with BDFD.
Check-raising range is non-existent as the board is super dry. Check-calling range includes sets, sTPTK (suited), middle pairs and high cards with BDFD.

After I bet the flop
TURN – 4:h 9:s K:c 7:c (50 combos -9:c7:c, -8:c7:c, -7:c6:c, -7:c5:c)
Value betting range: AKo(9) = 9
Draw betting range: A:c5:c-A:c4:c, Q:c9:c, T:c8:c, 8:c6:c, 6:c5:c, 6:c4:c, 5:c4:c = 8
Bluffing range: (no FD) Q9s(2), 87s(2), 76s-75s(4) = 8
Total combos bet: 25 (CBet – 50%)

Total combos checked: 25
Check-raising range: AA(6), K9s(3), 97s(2), T8s(2), 86s(2), 65s(2) = 17
Check-calling range: -
Total combos of checks defended: 17 (68%)

Analysis: Value betting range includes only oTPTK. Draw betting range contains all turned flush draws and while bluffing range will have all 2nd/3rd pairs.
Check-raising range includes OP and 2pairs that I check/shove (this is because sizing on the river would be awkward after normal check/raise and minraise would not generate max fold equity) for value as well as OESDs which will be shoved as a bluff.

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Firstly, I'm not sure if my flop check/calling range is good as it seems too strong now. However, I can't find a way to make it better.

Secondly, turn card helps for a huge part of my range, so maybe I should just bet my whole range?

Hey, nice job ♠_thumbsup:

I also think these exercises are very useful in creating patterns. IMO, only after you know perfectly your default game vs a default opponent, you are able to make adjustments vs specific individuals.

sveikas
Do we need to have a check calling range on #1 hand on flop and turn? We would defend part of our checking range with check raises and also betting with those check calling hands would be more +ev imo. Without check calling range we could also increase more check raising range if villain very often bets when we checked

Originally posted by wealthybrainer
sveikas
Do we need to have a check calling range on #1 hand on flop and turn? We would defend part of our checking range with check raises and also betting with those check calling hands would be more +ev imo. Without check calling range we could also increase more check raising range if villain very often bets when we checked

Labas

#1 If you bet with a merged range on the flop and #2 after you check you only raise or fold you will run into problems on later streets because #1 you won't be able to bet the turn often and you'll need a checking range on the turn vs a stronger villains range OR #2 if you bet the turn with a merged range again you'll have troubles on the river etc. In all cases, whenever you check, you won't defend aggressively enough so a bet with any 2 cards will be profitable (this is currently very profitable in NL25 and below, don't know about above ). Given that you'll check about 20-25% of the times on this flop it becomes easy money for your opponents.

Also, bear in mind that this is against an aggressive reg. I agree that you bet all your value hands vs passive/bad regs as they will not exploit you anyways. The best stat to check this out is 'bet vs missed CB OoP' in HM2.

I mean just on hand #1, hand #2 you don't need check raising as you have written and check calling range is a must, btw hand #2 is very good

Hand #1 I really don't think a check calling range is needed because it is too hard to have it, it is more profitable to have bigger cbet with all of your check-calling range put in betting range. In theory we should have, in practice I think not (not my thoughts, there are boards that we don't need a check calling range in practice, Mathew Janda said it on one of his video), especially on nl25 when regs are not so good and not always will exploit our check. Yes, we will be exploitable with a checking back, but most regs on mid stake do this as well because it is hard to balance check calling range on some boards and isn't so profitable maybe even not that profitable as just cbeting. Also, you would have bigger cbet, optimal for profit is about 60% and on this board it should be even bigger because it hits our range very good.

Edit: what if we do not check back at all and always cbet on hand 1#?

I am pretty good at reading if I concentrate on the game, but sometime I don't go with my read and this hurts.

Originally posted by wealthybrainer
I mean just on hand #1, hand #2 you don't need check raising as you have written and check calling range is a must, btw hand #2 is very good

Hand #1 I really don't think a check calling range is needed because it is too hard to have it, it is more profitable to have bigger cbet with all of your check-calling range put in betting range. In theory we should have, in practice I think not (not my thoughts, there are boards that we don't need a check calling range in practice, Mathew Janda said it on one of his video), especially on nl25 when regs are not so good and not always will exploit our check. Yes, we will be exploitable with a checking back, but most regs on mid stake do this as well because it is hard to balance check calling range on some boards and isn't so profitable maybe even not that profitable as just cbeting. Also, you would have bigger cbet, optimal for profit is about 60% and on this board it should be even bigger because it hits our range very good.

Edit: what if we do not check back at all and always cbet on hand 1#?

Vs fishes it's fine.
Vs regs I think we'll be floated a lot (don't forget that this board hits CO calling range as well). Personally, I'd like to have a check/calling and check/raising range on this board (hand #1) as people don't know how to play vs x/r and we can get more value from most regs.

To make it more interesting, could you write down your ranges on hand #1 the way I did so I could see how do you proceed in this spot?

Sorry for delay,
FLOP:Bet all my range :f_biggrin:, I wouldn't raise preflop 54s because it doesn't have enough playability. If I raise preflop with 54s, then I would check it on the flop.
TURN – A♥T♣8♣5♥(191 combos)
bet/fold:KK,QQ,JJ,KQo(12),KQs(2),KJs(2),QJs(2),98s(2),87s(2),86s(2),75s(2),65s(2),KTs(2),QTs(2),JTs(2),T9s(2)(without flushdraw),77, 99 (68 combos)

bet/call:AT(9),A8s(2),T8s(3),AK(12),AQ(12),88,55 (44 combos)

bet/raise:K♣Q♣,K♣J♣,Q♣J♣,J♣9♣,9♣7♣,7♣6♣,K♥Q♥,K♥J♥,Q♥J♥,J♥9♥,7♥6♥, AA,TT (18combos)

check/call:AJ(12),A9s(3),A7s(3),A5s(3) - with flushdraws
J9s(2),97s(2),76s(2) -straightdraws without flushdraws
7♣5♣,6♣5♣,K♥T♥,Q♥T♥,J♥T♥,T♥9♥,9♥8♥,8♥7♥,8♥6♥(37 combos)

check/fold:22,33,44,66 (24 combos)

when I bet turn ( now 123 combos)
RIVER – A♥T♣8♣5♥7♣

bet/fold:K♣Qx(3),K♣K(3),Q♣Q(3),J♣Jx(3) (12 combos)
bet/all in:A♣K♣,A♣Q♣,K♣Q♣,K♣J♣,Q♣J♣,J♣9♣,9♣7♣,7♣6♣(8 combos)
check/call:AT(9),A8s(2),T8s(3),75s(2),AK(11),AQ(11),87s(2),J♥9♥,AA,TT,88,77,55 (56 combos)
check/fold:KQs(3),KJs(3),QJs(3),98s(2),65s(2),9♥7♥,7♥6♥- missed draws
KQ(9),KK(3),QQ(3),JJ(3),99(6),T9s(2),JTs(2),QTs(2),KTs(2) (47 combos)

Originally posted by wealthybrainer
Sorry for delay,
FLOP:Bet all my range :f_biggrin:, I wouldn't raise preflop 54s because it doesn't have enough playability. If I raise preflop with 54s, then I would check it on the flop.
TURN – A♥T♣8♣5♥(191 combos)
bet/fold:KK,QQ,JJ,KQo(12),KQs(2),KJs(2),QJs(2),98s(2),87s(2),86s(2),75s(2),65s(2),KTs(2),QTs(2),JTs(2),T9s(2)(without flushdraw),77, 99 (68 combos)

bet/call:AT(9),A8s(2),T8s(3),AK(12),AQ(12),88,55 (44 combos)

bet/raise:K♣Q♣,K♣J♣,Q♣J♣,J♣9♣,9♣7♣,7♣6♣,K♥Q♥,K♥J♥,Q♥J♥,J♥9♥,7♥6♥, AA,TT (18combos)

check/call:AJ(12),A9s(3),A7s(3),A5s(3) - with flushdraws
J9s(2),97s(2),76s(2) -straightdraws without flushdraws
7♣5♣,6♣5♣,K♥T♥,Q♥T♥,J♥T♥,T♥9♥,9♥8♥,8♥7♥,8♥6♥(37 combos)

check/fold:22,33,44,66 (24 combos)

when I bet turn ( now 123 combos)
RIVER – A♥T♣8♣5♥7♣

bet/fold:K♣Qx(3),K♣K(3),Q♣Q(3),J♣Jx(3) (12 combos)
bet/all in:A♣K♣,A♣Q♣,K♣Q♣,K♣J♣,Q♣J♣,J♣9♣,9♣7♣,7♣6♣(8 combos)
check/call:AT(9),A8s(2),T8s(3),75s(2),AK(11),AQ(11),87s(2),J♥9♥,AA,TT,88,77,55 (56 combos)
check/fold:KQs(3),KJs(3),QJs(3),98s(2),65s(2),9♥7♥,7♥6♥- missed draws
KQ(9),KK(3),QQ(3),JJ(3),99(6),T9s(2),JTs(2),QTs(2),KTs(2) (47 combos)

Thanks for the detailed analysis!

I assume you cbet something like 70% PSB OTF. Your 100% flop cbet has to be profitable 41% of the times (70/170) to justify betting with your weakest holdings. If I defend more than 60% of my preflop flatting range it's not gonna be profitable for you to bet with your weakest holdings and therefore you would need to have a checking range.

My COvMP flatting range is:
JJ-44, AKo-AQo, AQs-ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s

FLOP - A:h T:c 8:c (102 combos)
Raising range:
Value - TT(3), 88(3), ATs(2), Q:cJ:c(1) = 9
Bluff - K:hQ:h-K:hJ:h(2), Q:hJ:h(1), 9:c9x(3), 7:c7x(3), T9s(3) 98s(3), 87s(3), 7:h6:h(1) = 19
Calling range: JJ(6), AKo(9), AQo(9), AQs(3), AJs(3), KTs(3), QTs(3), JTs(3), K:cQ:c-K:cJ:c(2), 7:c6:c(1) = 42
Total combos defended: 70 (69%)
Analysis: I can raise a balanced ranged as well as have a strong calling range which could call down 3 streets all this while defending more than necessary hand combinations as this flop hits my flatting range pretty hard. If somebody cbets 100% vs me on this flop they are losing money. I think this illustrates the point why you need to have a checking range vs a good regular on this flop.

Same situation on the turn/river - your betting range is too weak and you effectively value town yourself vs good players (you can work with my flop calling range to estimate how much I have/can defend on the turn). Btw, on the river you have too many bluff combos as the ratio should be 2:1 value:bluff.

Hopefully this helps!
David

Yeah, good point having a check calling range. Villain also hits very well. Where on the river I have written too many cobos of bluff? bet/all in 8, bet fold 12 combos

You have 12 combos of bluffs and 8 combos of value hands so it's 1.5:1 ratio bluffs/value while it should be 1:2 bluffs/value. So when you have 8 combos of value hands you shouldn't have more than 4 combos of bluff bets.

Originally posted by Dawidas888
You have 12 combos of bluffs and 8 combos of value hands so it's 1.5:1 ratio bluffs/value while it should be 1:2 bluffs/value. So when you have 8 combos of value hands you shouldn't have more than 4 combos of bluff bets.

I don't agree, 2:1 is bluffs:value, not value: bluffs, because we risk about 60-80% of the pot to win 100%pot. Lets say pot 11$ and you bet 7$, your bluffs need to work 37% to make profit. My bluff range should be even bigger (bet-fold range)

Originally posted by wealthybrainer

Originally posted by Dawidas888
You have 12 combos of bluffs and 8 combos of value hands so it's 1.5:1 ratio bluffs/value while it should be 1:2 bluffs/value. So when you have 8 combos of value hands you shouldn't have more than 4 combos of bluff bets.

I don't agree, 2:1 is bluffs:value, not value: bluffs, because we risk about 60-80% of the pot to win 100%pot. Lets say pot 11$ and you bet 7$, your bluffs need to work 37% to make profit. My bluff range should be even bigger (bet-fold range)

I understand what formula you are using, namely:
bet_size / (pot_size+bet_size) = %_of_times_bluff_needs_to_work

I'm not exactly sure why this formula is good/not good, but Matthew Janda in Applications of NLH provides the below described solution how our ranges should look on the river (my opinion is that the calculation method you suggested is wrong because it does not look at how often opponent calls - if you bet 100% using the suggested formula the bluff needs to work 50% of the time, but in reality it would work only 33% as opponent would be more inclined to call given the odds he gets).

When one bets the river, it's about the odds the opponent is getting to call.
If you bet 100% (pot sized bet), the opponent is getting 2:1 to a call and if you bet with 66% of bluffs and 33% value bets the opponent would show a profit by always calling you as he needs to be right only 33% of the time (and he will be right 66% of the time).

If, say, you bet 75%, the opponent needs to be right only 30% of the time. So when you bet you should have only 30% of bluffs and 70% value bets to make the opponent indifferent to calling (meaning that whenever you bet - you win).

However, I would argue that even good regulars in micro/low stakes call river bets way too often so a river bluffing range should be almost non-existent even vs good players.

This is the following hand - [SH] NL25 65s flop/turn spots - floating.

Same assumption as before:
- Villain is an aggressive NL25-50 reg.

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PREFLOP – BTN v MP flatting range
JJ-33, AKo-AQo, AQs-ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs-J9s, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s – 10.7%

FLOP – 5:c 2:d 7:c (132 combos)
Value raising range: 77(3), 55(3) = 6
- Value raising range includes all sets.
Bluff raising range: 4:c4x-3:c3x(6), A:dQ:d-A:dT:d(3), 65s(3), 54s(3)= 15
- Bluffing range includes weak pairs and BDNFD.
Calling range: JJ-88(24), AKo-AQo(24), A:cQ:c-A:cT:c(3), K:cQ:c-K:cT:c(3), Q:cJ:c-Q:cT:c(2), J:cT:c-J:c9:c(2), T:c9:c(1), 9:c8:c(1), 87s(3), 76s(3) = 66
- Calling range includes overpairs, strong overcards, flush draws and top pairs.
Total combos defended: 87 (66%)

After calling the flop bet
TURN – 5:c 2:d 7:c K:h (63 combos; -3 AKo combos)
Value betting range: AKo(9), K:cQ:c-K:cT:c(3) = 12
- Value betting range includes all TPs.
Bluff betting range: AQo(12), Q:cJ:c-Q:cT:c(2), J:cT:c-J:c9:c(2), T:c9:c(1), 9:c8:c(1) = 18
- Bluffing range ace highs and flush draws.
Total combos bet: 30 (48%)
Checking range: JJ-88(24), A:cQ:c-A:cT:c(3), 87s(3), 76s(3) = 33
- Checking range includes strong middle pairs and strong flush draws.

After calling the flop bet and checking behind on the turn
RIVER – 5:c 2:d 7:c K:h 9:h (30 combos, -3 99 combos)
Value raising range: 99(3) = 3
- Value raising range includes all rivered sets.
Calling range: JJ-TT(12) = 12
- Calling range includes strong middle pairs.
Total combos defended: 15 (50%)

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Firstly, I'm not sure if my flop calling range is too wide/narrow.

Secondly, I'm used to betting strong middle pairs for thin value, but apparently I wouldn't have enough bluffs and I couldn't call after any of my checks on most rivers. Is it better to bet with a merged range on the turn?

This is the following hand - [SH] NL25 AQo 3bet pot - bluffcatching 2 streets.

Same assumption as before:
- Villain is an aggressive NL25-50 reg.

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PREFLOP – BB v CO 3bet range
AA-JJ, 44-22, AKo, AKs-AQs, A5s-A4s, K9s, Q9s, T8s, 97s, 87s-86s, 76s-75s, 65s-64s, 54s – 8.6%

FLOP – 5:h 3:s 9:d (104 combos)
Value betting range: KK-JJ(18) = 18
- Value betting range includes overpairs.
Draw/bluff betting range: AKo(12), AKf-AQf(6), A5s (3), K9s(3), Q9s(3), 97s(3), 87f-86f(6), 75s(3), 65s(3), 54s(3) = 45
- Includes strong OCs, weak pairs and all GS+BDFD.
Total combos bet: 63 (CBet – 61%)

Total combos checked: 41
Check-raising range: AA(6), 33(3), A4f(3), 76s(4), 64s(4) = 20
- Check/raise value range includes sets and aces.
- Check/raise bluff range includes OESDs and GS+OC.
Check-calling range: -
Total combos of checks defended: 20 (49%)

After betting the flop
TURN – 5:h 3:s 9:d 5:c (59 combos; -4 5x combos)
Value betting range: KK-JJ(18) = 18
- Value betting range includes overpairs.
Draw/bluff betting range: AKs(3), K9s(3), Q9s(3), 97s(3) = 12
- Includes strong OCs, weak pairs and all GS+BDFD.
Total combos bet: 30 (CBet – 61%)

Total combos checked: 29
Check-shoving range: A5s(2), 75s(2), 65s(2), 54s(2), A:cKx(4) = 12
- Value range includes all trips.
- Bluff range includes overcards with an ace of the last suit.
Total combos of checks defended: 12 (41%)

After betting OTF and OTT
RIVER – 5:h 3:s 9:d 5:c T:s (30 combos)
Value/bluff shoving range: KK-JJ(18) = 18
- All overpairs. Shoving and hoping he folds. Check/folding the rest.
Total combos bet: 18 (CBet – 60%)

*f – with backdoor flush draw
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The river range looks messed up as I'm supposed to shove a merged range of overpairs and never defend my checks as there can't really be many bluffs in villains range for x/c to be profitable.

good stuff OP.

Just skimmed through the first hand (AT8cc) - not an easy board to play OOP. I think you def need solid check - defending range here as ull have lots of hands that want to x/call this flop.

You wanna x/call hands that can continue on blanks, flush or straight completing turns.

Your ranges looks good, just the flop x/raising range - why not use 8c8x-6c6x instead of 4c4x - 2c-2x ?

Originally posted by dozeer
good stuff OP.

Just skimmed through the first hand (AT8cc) - not an easy board to play OOP. I think you def need solid check - defending range here as ull have lots of hands that want to x/call this flop.

You wanna x/call hands that can continue on blanks, flush or straight completing turns.

Your ranges looks good, just the flop x/raising range - why not use 8c8x-6c6x instead of 4c4x - 2c-2x ?

I agree that it would be better to use 7:c7x-5:c5x as x/r bluffs rather than 44-22. Personally for me it was just easier to remember and I think they don't have a significantly bigger equity.

This is the following hand - [SH] NL25 KQs river spot - bluffing with a missed draw.

Same assumption as before:
- Villain is an aggressive NL25-50 reg.

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PREFLOP – BTN v UTG flatting range
QQ-33, AKo-AQo, AQs-ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs-J9s, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s – 11.2%

FLOP – 8:s 3:h 2:d (140 combos)
Calling range: QQ-33(56), AKo(12), AQf-ATf(9), 98s(3), 87s(3), 54s(4) = 87
- Calling range includes all sets, pairs, strong overcards, OESD and nut BDFDs.
Total combos defended: 87 (62%)

After calling the flop bet
TURN – 8:s 3:h 2:d T:s (83 combos; -3 TT, -1 ATs combo)
Value raising range: TT(3), 88(3), 33(3) = 9
- Value raising range includes all sets.
Bluff raising range: A:sKx(3), AxK:s(3) = 6
- Bluffing range includes weak pairs and BDNFD.
Calling range: QQ-JJ(12), 99(6), A:sQ:s-A:sJ:s(2), ATs(2), 98s(3), 87s(3), 54s(4) = 32
- Includes all OP, TP and strong MP, strong overcards and nut BDFDs.
Total combos defended: 47 (57%)

After calling the flop and turn bets
RIVER – 8:s 3:h 2:d T:s 7:h (46 combos, -1 87s combo)
Value betting range: QQ-JJ(12), 87s(2) = 14
- All overpairs and 2pairs.
Bluff betting range: A:sQ:s-A:sJ:s(2), 54s(4) = 6
- All missed draws.
Total combos bet: 20 (43%)

*f – with backdoor flush draw

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#1 Maybe I should I have a raising range on this flop to put more pressure on the opponent?
#2 I can't find many combos to defend the turn with. Should I call more on the flop?
#3 I wonder if betting QQ-JJ for value on this river is not too thin?
#4 I'm not sure of my river bet sizing. I guess I shouldn't pot it but rather make it 2/3 or something as my range is not super strong.

Same assumption as before:
- Villain is an aggressive NL25-50 reg.

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PREFLOP – BU v CO flatting range
TT-22, AQo-AJo, KQo, AQs-A8s, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs-J9s, T9s-T8s, 98s-97s, 87s-86s, 76s-75s, 65s, 54s

FLOP – 6:h 6:s A:d (156 combos)
Calling range: TT-66(25), AQo-AJo(18), AQs-A8s(15), KQf-KTf(9), QJf-QTf(6), JTf(3), 87f(3), 75f(3), 54f(3), 86s(2), 76s(2), 65s(2) = 91
- Calling range includes quads, TP, MP, trips, broadway BDFD and BDFD+BDSD.
Total combos defended: 91 (58%)

After calling OTF
TURN – 6:h 6:s A:d 3:c (91 combos)
Calling range: 66(1), AQo-AJo(18), AQs-A8s(15), 75s(3), 54s(3), 86s(2), 76s(2), 65s(2) = 46
- Includes quads, TP, trips and draws (OESD and GS). Turn card is very bad as very small part of my range can continue + I’m capped with my TPs.
Total combos defended: 46 (51%)

After calling OTF and OTT
RIVER – 6:h 6:s A:d 3:c J:c (43 combos, -2 AJo, -1 AJs)
Value betting range: 66(1), AJo(7), AJs(2), 86s(2), 76s(2), 65s(2) = 16
- Includes quads, 2pairs and trips.
Bluff betting range: 75s(3), 54s(3) = 6
- Includes missed draws.
Total combos bet: 22 (51%)

*f – with backdoor flush draw