Need help on ZOOM FR

Hey,

Will move this to our relevant board

Best regards,
Gary.

Thanks - any feedback anyone?

Can post more info if it helps the analysis/replies.

Would be nice to get some feedback - is there any more info I can post to help?

hey Galador82

30k hands won't really show too much tbh, but ofc it will at least give some sort of info. just it won't be too accurate. that being said, i don't think anybody could really give you any decent feedback with the stats you've posted. i guess that's why nobody has replied.

i don't play fullring anymore, and i'm only playing nl25 atm but i feel like i could give some feedback if i saw some more information.

so the things i'd like to see are:
- positional raise first in (RFI, or UO PFR in hm2)
- positional 3bet%
- positional vs 3bet fold%
- cbet flop%, turn% and river%
- fold to cbet% flop turn and river
- f/t/r aggression stats

i'm quite happy talking about these stats and i think think they will often show some leaks. probably better if you post a screenshot of these - you should add the 'leakbuster - position' report if you are using hm2 and then add any of these that arent shown in that report.

Thanks for your reply DrDunne.

Here are some further stats as requested:

Overall UO PFR is 13.1% - breakdown per position as follows:

BTN 39.8%
CO 21.8%
MP+2 11.1%
MP+1 8.20%
MP 5.92%
EP+2 7.83%
EP+1 6.47%
BB N/A
SB 53.0%

Overall 3bet% is 3.95% - breakdown per position as follows:

BTN 3.35%
CO 3.55%
MP+2 3.20%
MP+1 3.45%
MP 3.53%
EP+2 3.90%
EP+1 N/A
BB 4.45%
SB 5.06%

Overall vs 3bet fold% is 49.6% - breakdown per position as follows:

BTN 67.0%
CO 64.2%
MP+2 41.5%
MP+1 25.0%
MP 21.2%
EP+2 43.9%
EP+1 35.0%
BB N/A
SB 56.0%

Cbet flop% = 74.6%
Cbet turn% = 46.2%
Cbet river% = 50.8%

Fold to Cbet flop% = 63.1%
Fold to Cbet turn% = 35.4%
Fold to Cbet river% = 33.3%

Flop Agg Factor = 3.11
Flop Agg% = 39.1%
Turn Agg Factor = 1.65
Turn Agg% = 26.2%
River Agg Factor = 1.17
River Agg% = 17.6%

I do not have Leakbuster (although I guess one can use the free trial?) and not too familiar with its use tbh.

Hope the above stats help give a better picture.

hi!

moved to FR recenlty from SH

here are my currently stats. myb will help

Originally posted by Galador82

Spoiler

Thanks for your reply DrDunne.

Here are some further stats as requested:

Overall UO PFR is 13.1% - breakdown per position as follows:

BTN 39.8%
CO 21.8%
MP+2 11.1%
MP+1 8.20%
MP 5.92%
EP+2 7.83%
EP+1 6.47%
BB N/A
SB 53.0%

Overall 3bet% is 3.95% - breakdown per position as follows:

BTN 3.35%
CO 3.55%
MP+2 3.20%
MP+1 3.45%
MP 3.53%
EP+2 3.90%
EP+1 N/A
BB 4.45%
SB 5.06%

Overall vs 3bet fold% is 49.6% - breakdown per position as follows:

BTN 67.0%
CO 64.2%
MP+2 41.5%
MP+1 25.0%
MP 21.2%
EP+2 43.9%
EP+1 35.0%
BB N/A
SB 56.0%

Cbet flop% = 74.6%
Cbet turn% = 46.2%
Cbet river% = 50.8%

Fold to Cbet flop% = 63.1%
Fold to Cbet turn% = 35.4%
Fold to Cbet river% = 33.3%

Flop Agg Factor = 3.11
Flop Agg% = 39.1%
Turn Agg Factor = 1.65
Turn Agg% = 26.2%
River Agg Factor = 1.17
River Agg% = 17.6%

I do not have Leakbuster (although I guess one can use the free trial?) and not too familiar with its use tbh.

Hope the above stats help give a better picture.

not sure why rfi in MP < EP+2, but i have a suspicion it is a sample size issue. i won't comment much on your rfi because overall it is probably fine. however your SB rfi should probably not be more than your BU ♦ so it will probably be better to tighten up to something that looks like your CO range. which also could be a little wider, so maybe you should look for some more spots to steal from CO. that said it's probably the norm to be on the tighter side in fr anyway.

first main thing that i see is your 3bet% is pretty much QQ+ and AQ+. looks like you have a relatively static range with a couple of bluffs thrown in from the blinds. maybe it's QQ+ and AK with a few more bluffs, but still it could be a tad wider i think. don't go around 3betting random crap without a good reason tho, so instead you should look at understanding 3betting theory a bit more. why you 3bet certain hands against certain players and not vs others etc.

about your fold to 3bets, i think a good rule of thumb is to just fold OOP whenever you face a 3bet. unless you want to 4bet/call. i don't think people are 3betting enough especially at fullring to justify calling OOP. so for example you open raise a range like 99+, AQs+, KQs, AQo+, KQo in EP, but when you face a 3bet you are folding only 35% of the time. that means you're continuing with something like this: JJ+, AQs+, KQs, AQo+ and assuming you aren't 4bet/calling unless you have KK+, then your range for calling the 3bet OOP in this case is actually pretty bad given how tight people are 3betting - especially vs UTG. i think you should be folding a ton to 3bets when OOP especially. run some equities with equilab and see how you do with your OOP calling range against an average 3betting range (i'm assuming an average 3betting range to look like this: JJ+,AQs+,AQo+). yeah you have 42% equity but you are OOP and can't realise 100% of that equity and therefore you will be losing money by calling like this. i might have your ranges wrong, but just something to think about and apply to all positions, not just UTG.

i actually just saw your vs 3bet-fold% and i think it really needs to be increased. this is quite low - even for 6max. in fullring people arent even gunna be 3betting you light much at all so there really is no reason to call this much. i think you can fold to 3bets overall greater than 70% of the time - people just are not exploiting. if they are, they will stand out and you can adjust... but folding only 50% is gunna lead you to lose quite a bit of money in the long run. so i think that is very possibly a leak for you.

next you are cbetting the flop quite a bit. it's not bad but i think a lower cbet could be better. look for spots to check back as the PFA with some weaker made hands like weak TPs and MPs etc. but overall your cbet% is probably fine especially for FR where you have stronger ranges overall.

so from what i see it's mainly the 3betting ranges... and definitely dealing with 3bets that you should look into. true that villain can 3bet any 2 vs you when you fold ~70%+ to 3bets but it really isnt a valid argument when people are pretty much just 3betting for value.

thats just what i get from your stats... and maybe someone else will disagree/see something different so it could be interesting to see some more opinions.

@Jumbleboy.. not sure if you're trolling with the #of hands you've played ♦ but multiply that sample by at least 5 and then ask for feedback! basically what i see from that is... you played super tight (for 6max) for a few k hands, opened the button super loose, got sucked out on a few times, didn't cbet the flop very much and 3bet some button opens. i really can't say much more about it because the sample is so small, sorry!

Everything DrDunne said, plus you fold way too much to cbets. I know it FR rush where almost everybody plays 13/11 or something like that, but unless they open from EP, you can float them quite a lot. Play more IP and fold less against weaker ranges.

And you seriously need to adjust the 3bet game. You should be 3betting a lot more IP, that is BTN vs CO and MP especially. Call less 3bets OOP, 4b bluff against guys who are abusing with the 3b.

For example, I can only think of 2 reasons why I would call a 3b OOP:
1. with a pp against a super nit who is guaranteed to have AA or KK and he won't fold that if I hit my set.
2. with something like AJ, KQ against a guy who 3 bets a lot IP against my LP or SB open. I'm not comfortable 4b/c against him, but I know he is very likely to go crazy on any board and I can call him down with TP.

SB open may be fine, range wise should be something like CO range, but you can get away with any 2 against guy in ZOOM FR that fold a lot of BBs. I usually open any 2 against guys who fold to steal > 75. That is my SB open is 44. I am 3.5BB/100 over 90k hands at pokerstars, NL50 FR zoom, which is not crushing, but I am winning overall...

here are my stats, I am sure I have many leaks, but maybe you can get a few ideas...

BTW, any kind of comments by anybody are greatly appreciated...

DrDunne,

Thanks a lot for your feedback - a very interesting and detailed analysis which will definitely prove to be very useful.

Some comments in reply...

not sure why rfi in MP < EP+2, but i have a suspicion it is a sample size issue. i won't comment much on your rfi because overall it is probably fine. however your SB rfi should probably not be more than your BU grin so it will probably be better to tighten up to something that looks like your CO range. which also could be a little wider, so maybe you should look for some more spots to steal from CO. that said it's probably the norm to be on the tighter side in fr anyway.

In ZOOM I have noticed that many people in BB (esp those that have a high fold to steal%) just tick the check/fold icon when sitting in BB with garbage such that when I find myself in an opened pot in SB I automatically openraise and take it down. However, maybe I am overdoing it a bit. From CO, I usually openraise only if BU is not a heavy 3-better otherwise I face a 3bet OOP without really knowing whether to 4-bet light or not whilst being OOP.

first main thing that i see is your 3bet% is pretty much QQ+ and AQ+. looks like you have a relatively static range with a couple of bluffs thrown in from the blinds. maybe it's QQ+ and AK with a few more bluffs, but still it could be a tad wider i think. don't go around 3betting random crap without a good reason tho, so instead you should look at understanding 3betting theory a bit more. why you 3bet certain hands against certain players and not vs others etc.

I agree that I tend to cold call more than 3betting and this is probably due to an inherent nittiness I struggle to overcome. Definitely something I need to work upon.

about your fold to 3bets, i think a good rule of thumb is to just fold OOP whenever you face a 3bet. unless you want to 4bet/call. i don't think people are 3betting enough especially at fullring to justify calling OOP. so for example you open raise a range like 99+, AQs+, KQs, AQo+, KQo in EP, but when you face a 3bet you are folding only 35% of the time. that means you're continuing with something like this: JJ+, AQs+, KQs, AQo+ and assuming you aren't 4bet/calling unless you have KK+, then your range for calling the 3bet OOP in this case is actually pretty bad given how tight people are 3betting - especially vs UTG. i think you should be folding a ton to 3bets when OOP especially. run some equities with equilab and see how you do with your OOP calling range against an average 3betting range (i'm assuming an average 3betting range to look like this: JJ+,AQs+,AQo+). yeah you have 42% equity but you are OOP and can't realise 100% of that equity and therefore you will be losing money by calling like this. i might have your ranges wrong, but just something to think about and apply to all positions, not just UTG.

Yes I agree with your analysis... I think this stems from my tendency esp when tilted to overcall 3-bets with low pocket pairs hoping to hit a magical set but as you say calling OOP is rarely profitable even when hitting the set. Definitely a leak to work upon.

next you are cbetting the flop quite a bit. it's not bad but i think a lower cbet could be better. look for spots to check back as the PFA with some weaker made hands like weak TPs and MPs etc. but overall your cbet% is probably fine especially for FR where you have stronger ranges overall.

Hmmm... a bit unsure about this, noticed that Cbetting esp in ZOOM FR and in cbetting friendly boards is very high +EV but I'll keep an eye on when I can check/call and/or check/raise.

Thanks so much for your help - really appreciated

Originally posted by circoflax
Everything DrDunne said, plus you fold way too much to cbets. I know it FR rush where almost everybody plays 13/11 or something like that, but unless they open from EP, you can float them quite a lot. Play more IP and fold less against weaker ranges.

What Cbet fold % would you consider optimal for FR rush? I will try to float esp against players who have high cbet flop% and low cbet turn%.

And you seriously need to adjust the 3bet game. You should be 3betting a lot more IP, that is BTN vs CO and MP especially. Call less 3bets OOP, 4b bluff against guys who are abusing with the 3b.

Noted and will work on this.

SB open may be fine, range wise should be something like CO range, but you can get away with any 2 against guy in ZOOM FR that fold a lot of BBs. I usually open any 2 against guys who fold to steal > 75. That is my SB open is 44. I am 3.5BB/100 over 90k hands at pokerstars, NL50 FR zoom, which is not crushing, but I am winning overall...

Yes I agree with you, I usually adopt any 2 open raise against someone with fold to steal >80 but we are there. Guess with a larger sample size my SB open will adapt to more normal values.

In ZOOM I have noticed that many people in BB (esp those that have a high fold to steal%) just tick the check/fold icon when sitting in BB with garbage such that when I find myself in an opened pot in SB I automatically openraise and take it down. However, maybe I am overdoing it a bit. From CO, I usually openraise only if BU is not a heavy 3-better otherwise I face a 3bet OOP without really knowing whether to 4-bet light or not whilst being OOP.

yeah that's a really good point - today i was thinking about what i said (about your SB range being like CO) and while thats a good plan as a general guideling like vs an unknown, im sure everyone can agree that people are just not defending in BB enough. my RFI in sb (6max, but probably the same story) is like 42% which is clearly way more than my CO open (~25%-30%). so yeah, definitely look for people who you can exploit like that. it's a good idea to have that stat in your HUD if possible. and also consider exploitative bet sizings as well - don't have to 3x it just cos it's standard. if the guy is a nit there is no reason not to just minraise him i think.

also 1 other thing about this is that if you are opening wide in SB then you should always keep in mind that your cbet success will most likely drop. so look for more spots to check/fold as PFA, more spots to cbet-cbet, and try to avoid a 1-and-done approach otherwise you probably are leaking there. this might not apply to you but i think in general people don't seem to get that they dont have to cbet the flop just cos they opened, especially in sbvbb ♦

Yes I agree with your analysis... I think this stems from my tendency esp when tilted to overcall 3-bets with low pocket pairs hoping to hit a magical set but as you say calling OOP is rarely profitable even when hitting the set. Definitely a leak to work upon.

that magical set will only come 12% of the time! this actually explains a lot, and it seems like a standard play for a lot of people but it doesnt mean it's good. i think you need a really really good reason to setmine OOP vs a 3bet. i.e. you have 88-QQ, are in EP, and villain is a nit who will not fold KK+ postflop. otherwise i just think its gunna be losing you a ton of money. you are effectively packaging ~6bb, tying a ribbon on it and saying happy birthday to villain ♦ (assuming you dont try and get fancy postflop when you miss - in which case he gets an even nicer present!)

Hmmm... a bit unsure about this, noticed that Cbetting esp in ZOOM FR and in cbetting friendly boards is very high +EV but I'll keep an eye on when I can check/call and/or check/raise.

yeah for sure cbetting a lot is good in general, but mainly im talking about those marginal made hands where if you fire flop and turn you just turn your hand into a bluff, but at the same time if you cbet just once then villain push you off later and you can't call down. if you have these sort of hands then it's actually quite nice to check/call as the PFA because its much easier to get to SD this way. by doing this you polarise your cbetting range to air/draws and good TP hands, which although is playing face up sometimes it doesnt really matter because most people aren't adjusting well to it. just something to think about anyway, but if your way of cbetting is working out fine then no reason to do anything to it.

August is almost over and seems that it has been a much better month than the previous one:

Month 2013-08
Hands 33180
Net Won $170.29
Net Won (EV adjusted)$99.40
bb/100 5.13
VPIP 11.5
PFR 9.38
3bet 4.38
WTSD% 26.1
W$SD% 56.8
Agg 2.88
Agg% 36.1

Month 2013-07
Hands 30665
Net Won $-129.33
Net Won (EV adjusted)$5.84
bb/100 -4.22
VPIP 11.84
PFR 9.09
3bet 3.95
WTSD% 24.86
W$SD% 51.37
Agg 2.34
Agg% 32.02

A comparison of the stats of July and August - August ones in bold

Overall UO PFR is 13.1% / 13.7%

BTN 39.8% 41.3%
CO 21.8% 23.2%
MP+2 11.1% 10.0%
MP+1 8.20% 7.87%
MP 5.92% 8.00%
EP+2 7.83% 6.93%
EP+1 6.47% 7.13%
BB N/A N/A
SB 53.0% 59.8%

Overall 3bet% is 3.95% / 4.38%

BTN 3.35% 4.11%
CO 3.55% 4.22%
MP+2 3.20% 4.58%
MP+1 3.45% 3.52%
MP 3.53% 3.17%
EP+2 3.90% 3.90%
EP+1 N/A N/A
BB 4.45% 5.43%
SB 5.06% 4.36%

Overall vs 3bet fold% is 49.6% / 55.8%

BTN 67.0% 67.4%
CO 64.2% 76.9%
MP+2 41.5% 44.8%
MP+1 25.0% 29.2%
MP 21.2% 46.7%
EP+2 43.9% 34.5%
EP+1 35.0% 35.3%
BB N/A N/A
SB 56.0% 70.8%

Cbet flop% = 74.6% 80.7%
Cbet turn% = 46.2% 48.5%
Cbet river% = 50.8% 56.6%

Fold to Cbet flop% = 63.1% 58.1%
Fold to Cbet turn% = 35.4% 38.4%
Fold to Cbet river% = 33.3% 47.4%

Flop Agg Factor = 3.11 3.87
Flop Agg% = 39.1% 44.6%
Turn Agg Factor = 1.65 1.96
Turn Agg% = 26.2% 28.7%
River Agg Factor = 1.17 1.76
River Agg% = 17.6% 21.7%

General comments

Obviously pleased for ending the month with a profit, seems like I had the upper hand of variance this month.

The stats seem to suggest that I am raising more and calling less and have adopted a more aggressive stance during August increasing both the 3-betting as well as aggression factor throughout.

Still worried about my fold vs 3-bet - I really need help on this - any pointers on some stuff I can read to understand when cold calling and/or 4-betting is doable here? What fold vs 3-bet percentage should one aim for?

Any other comments / discussions very welcome

Originally posted by Galador82

Spoiler

August is almost over and seems that it has been a much better month than the previous one:

Month 2013-08
Hands 33180
Net Won $170.29
Net Won (EV adjusted)$99.40
bb/100 5.13
VPIP 11.5
PFR 9.38
3bet 4.38
WTSD% 26.1
W$SD% 56.8
Agg 2.88
Agg% 36.1

Month 2013-07
Hands 30665
Net Won $-129.33
Net Won (EV adjusted)$5.84
bb/100 -4.22
VPIP 11.84
PFR 9.09
3bet 3.95
WTSD% 24.86
W$SD% 51.37
Agg 2.34
Agg% 32.02

A comparison of the stats of July and August - August ones in bold

Overall UO PFR is 13.1% / 13.7%

BTN 39.8% 41.3%
CO 21.8% 23.2%
MP+2 11.1% 10.0%
MP+1 8.20% 7.87%
MP 5.92% 8.00%
EP+2 7.83% 6.93%
EP+1 6.47% 7.13%
BB N/A N/A
SB 53.0% 59.8%

Overall 3bet% is 3.95% / 4.38%

BTN 3.35% 4.11%
CO 3.55% 4.22%
MP+2 3.20% 4.58%
MP+1 3.45% 3.52%
MP 3.53% 3.17%
EP+2 3.90% 3.90%
EP+1 N/A N/A
BB 4.45% 5.43%
SB 5.06% 4.36%

Overall vs 3bet fold% is 49.6% / 55.8%

BTN 67.0% 67.4%
CO 64.2% 76.9%
MP+2 41.5% 44.8%
MP+1 25.0% 29.2%
MP 21.2% 46.7%
EP+2 43.9% 34.5%
EP+1 35.0% 35.3%
BB N/A N/A
SB 56.0% 70.8%

Cbet flop% = 74.6% 80.7%
Cbet turn% = 46.2% 48.5%
Cbet river% = 50.8% 56.6%

Fold to Cbet flop% = 63.1% 58.1%
Fold to Cbet turn% = 35.4% 38.4%
Fold to Cbet river% = 33.3% 47.4%

Flop Agg Factor = 3.11 3.87
Flop Agg% = 39.1% 44.6%
Turn Agg Factor = 1.65 1.96
Turn Agg% = 26.2% 28.7%
River Agg Factor = 1.17 1.76
River Agg% = 17.6% 21.7%

General comments

Obviously pleased for ending the month with a profit, seems like I had the upper hand of variance this month.

The stats seem to suggest that I am raising more and calling less and have adopted a more aggressive stance during August increasing both the 3-betting as well as aggression factor throughout.

Still worried about my fold vs 3-bet - I really need help on this - any pointers on some stuff I can read to understand when cold calling and/or 4-betting is doable here? What fold vs 3-bet percentage should one aim for?

Any other comments / discussions very welcome

hey Galador82, good to see you had a better month this time

about reacting to 3bets, just fold. it's quite simple, if you are OOP you can and should just fold (even with JJ and AQ!!!). your calling frequency overall is still way too loose and you should be folding a lot more - around 70-80% is perfectly reasonable if your opponents aren't 3betting you a lot. i'm not sure if i linked this already but it's a good read: why we don't call 3bets OOP

something else you should consider is skill and position. if you call OOP you need to account for the fact that you will not realise 100% of your equity because you do not have a positional advantage - your opponent can push you off of your marginal hands. also, if you hit big your implied odds are pretty bad anyway because your opponent has the advantage of acting after you.

if anybody reading this disagrees then i look forward to reading another point of view! i like to always remind myself that saving money = making money in a lot of situations - especially when OOP and facing a 3bet.

I really think that if you continue folding more than 70 you will get abused a lot.

Take a practical example: You have A3s in CO, you open to 2.5bb. BTN who is aggressive makes it 8BB or 9BB. Now you have to take a look at his 3b BTN vs CO and his fold to 4b. If for example the first stat is something like 10% and the second one is 70%, then 4b as a bluff is mandatory.

Beware of guys who adapt to this. They will start shoving you with Axs, sc and any pps a lot. Then you have to adapt further more and 4b/c more value hands and less bluffs.

70% Wow! That explains a lot!

Just out of curiosity, I checked my own stats:

Call:  41.5
4Bet:  13.9
Fold:  46.9
 Sum: 101.9

By your standards, I have just found a huge leak!
In the call category, I can't tell how many are OOP -- I'll have to check.

I just filtered my stats for "Called 3Bet"
bb/100 = -192.77

'nuff said.

Thank you thank you thank you
--VS

Originally posted by circoflax
I really think that if you continue folding more than 70 you will get abused a lot.

Take a practical example: You have A3s in CO, you open to 2.5bb. BTN who is aggressive makes it 8BB or 9BB. Now you have to take a look at his 3b BTN vs CO and his fold to 4b. If for example the first stat is something like 10% and the second one is 70%, then 4b as a bluff is mandatory.

Beware of guys who adapt to this. They will start shoving you with Axs, sc and any pps a lot. Then you have to adapt further more and 4b/c more value hands and less bluffs.

yeah its definitely not "good" to fold that much but i'm making the safe assumption that at nl10 people arne't abusing you enough for you to be concerned about folding so much. also, if someone is exploiting your foldto3bet% then they will stand out quite easily after a couple hundred hands and you can come up with a way to exploit them (which probably does include calling OOP ♦ ). and making questionable/marginal calls against 3bets when IP is most likely less of a leak than calling when you are OOP.

in my personal experience i havent found anybody who caused me so much trouble at nl10 and the majority of players there still have static 3betting ranges - you can see this when they have ~4.5% 3bet which is pretty much JJ+ and AQ+... the guys that "exploit" my foldto3bet pretty much fail once i start adjusting because they tend to just take their strategy and stick to it and don't seem to know what to do once i change mine. but they represent an exception rather than a standard imo.

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
I just filtered my stats for "Called 3Bet"
bb/100 = -192.77

well i'm not 100% sure about the maths behind this cos im a bit of a noob in that area, but i'm pretty sure you need to account for the fact that when you open raise and then fold to a 3bet, if you fold 100% to 3bets your winrate will be -300bb/100 (assuming standard 3x opens). so then your strategy is gunna be more like trying to lose less than if you were to fold to every 3bet. so in that sense you are doing okay i think but i really don't know what a good winrate would look like. i'm assuming anything >-300bb/100 is a good start tho, but that would be your total winrate whenever you don't fold to a 3bet so it includes 4betting i think. i'm not sure if i explained myself clearly or if i'm even right about that so a pinch of salt is required ♦ it is interesting to look into this stuff tho!