Aj UTG

not at these stakes. esp not vs CO and his stats. Why have you excluded your own stats or is that just not there by default ? I would like to see your stats .

besides why would you ever donk fold here. just call river and expect to see the Q or win like always here. why all the need for the fancy plays your spouting out around these forums and all the analysis. Just play some standard ABC game while your learning. It feels like you are trying to learn 10th graders homework when your only in 3rd grade.

step down a few notches. make it much simpler and learn and move on from there once you've mastered the basics. right now i think your just looking for some bad excuse to try and fancy play yourself into a fold because you are afraid hes having the Queen due to his amazingly bad stats.

Originally posted by Avataren
not at these stakes. esp not vs CO and his stats. Why have you excluded your own stats or is that just not there by default ? I would like to see your stats ....

Not there by default. My stats were very likely something like (30/22/13) for that session, which is relevant to my question. A very tight guy is raising a tight UTG open.

The reason I think about bet/folding the river is that I don't think he will bet 88/99/TT/KJ/AK (and the like) for value (would you?), nor do I think will he bluff with AT/A9s/KTs (and the like), by betting (would you?) often enough for me to profitably check/call.

The rest of his range, as I perceive it, has hit this board, and beats me, and he'll raise with it if I bet (wouldn't you?). I also perceive that he will call if I bet with 88, 99, TT, and perhaps AK (wouldn't you?).

Please, leave the insults out Avataren.

/Johan

Donking out on the River is really unbalanced and almost always 99 TT Jx, a busted draw like T9s KTs and almost never AA KK or trips. really easy to play against that range. check/fold is too weak, he might consider valuebetting KJs as i'd do as well and he also might consider valuebetting TT against your small pocketpairs or AK he thinks you could call with enough of those worse hands.

This hand is really the best Hand you'd check/calldown with. If you c/f this hand you'd c/f 100% of your entire range. With a good read that he doesn't bet a bunch of his worse hands, neither raises a worse hand but calls with all the hands he'd checkbehind with instead, donking is a valid option and per se not to be considered as fishy as playing really balanced doesn't matter that much on the micros.

If you're uncertain about whether to call or to fold facing a Riverraise you should just check/call the River.

The donk wouldn't be my standard play, but read-based, with reads like in my previous two post. Thanks for the evaluation. It makes 100% sense.

/Johan =

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by Avataren
not at these stakes. esp not vs CO and his stats. Why have you excluded your own stats or is that just not there by default ? I would like to see your stats ....

Not there by default. My stats were very likely something like (30/22/13) for that session, which is relevant to my question. A very tight guy is raising a tight UTG open.

The reason I think about bet/folding the river is that I don't think he will bet 88/99/TT/KJ/AK (and the like) for value (would you?), nor do I think will he bluff with AT/A9s/KTs (and the like), by betting (would you?) often enough for me to profitably check/call.

The rest of his range, as I perceive it, has hit this board, and beats me, and he'll raise with it if I bet (wouldn't you?). I also perceive that he will call if I bet with 88, 99, TT, and perhaps AK (wouldn't you?).

Please, leave the insults out Avataren.

/Johan

I haven't started to insult you. I am trying to help you here. and I have basically ever since you went berzerk the very first time. There is no hint at all to being mean, I really do believe you need to take a few steps back and start with the easy things instead of thinking too far ahead of your skill.

Originally posted by Avataren

...

besides why would you ever donk fold here. just call river and expect to see the Q or win like always here. why all the need for the fancy plays your spouting out around these forums and all the analysis. Just play some standard ABC game while your learning. It feels like you are trying to learn 10th graders homework when your only in 3rd grade.

step down a few notches. make it much simpler and learn and move on from there once you've mastered the basics. right now i think your just looking for some bad excuse to try and fancy play yourself into a fold because you are afraid hes having the Queen due to his amazingly bad stats.

Now, that sounds like a bucket full of insults for someone who has been playing poker for plenty of years.

But you are right in one respect. I'm not asking very often about things that involve ABC play. I also don't often ask about GTO or standard lines. The GTO play I can often figure out myself (if it's one street). Six years worth of math and physics courses at various universities brings with it at least some ability to calculate basic probabilities. This ability to know a little more than the bare basics of math have also made me look ridiculous (according to madorjan) when I once in a thread asked for a little more detail (a proof in fact) about the Nash equilibrium in poker.

This means I post a lot of odd hands that involve reads, or a least stats. You are not the only one that seem to dislike that. You (and probably others) may think that I never listen to advice. That is untrue. What is true is that I am too stubborn on occasion. I also never fully accept advice before I have understood why the advice is given. Moreover, some advice is not optimized for the stakes I play, so it just doesn't apply, basically because GTO is optimal only when the opponents play GTO as well, which is pretty far from how they actually play.

As for the actual advice you give ("not at these stakes. esp not vs CO and his stats"), it's just wrong. It's precisely at these stakes versus a guy with those stats you can consider donking in the present situation. Read firsttsunami's post. Are you sure you know the basics of check/call, check/fold, and bet/fold? I doubt it. The only reason not to donk is that you give your hand away a bit, and over large sample of hand, you become uncalanced. If you had had the initiative, the bet would be a total nobrainer.

Then "I am trying to help you here. and I have basically ever since you went berzerk the very first time." Well, that sounds like another insult. In what way "help" do you mean? It sounds like you are only trying to collect some kind of weird points here. I did go berzerk once and you know why. I wrote you a message and apologized some time ago, but you didn't even care to respond to it.

/Johan

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by Avataren

...

besides why would you ever donk fold here. just call river and expect to see the Q or win like always here. why all the need for the fancy plays your spouting out around these forums and all the analysis. Just play some standard ABC game while your learning. It feels like you are trying to learn 10th graders homework when your only in 3rd grade.

step down a few notches. make it much simpler and learn and move on from there once you've mastered the basics. right now i think your just looking for some bad excuse to try and fancy play yourself into a fold because you are afraid hes having the Queen due to his amazingly bad stats.

Now, that sounds like a bucket full of insults for someone who has been playing poker for plenty of years.

But you are right in one respect. I'm not asking very often about things that involve ABC play. I also don't often ask about GTO or standard lines. The GTO play I can often figure out myself (if it's one street). Six years worth of math and physics courses at various universities brings with it at least some ability to calculate basic probabilities. This ability to know a little more than the bare basics of math have also made me look ridiculous (according to madorjan) when I once in a thread asked for a little more detail (a proof in fact) about the Nash equilibrium in poker.

This means I post a lot of odd hands that involve reads, or a least stats. You are not the only one that seem to dislike that. You (and probably others) may think that I never listen to advice. That is untrue. What is true is that I am too stubborn on occasion. I also never fully accept advice before I have understood why the advice is given. Moreover, some advice is not optimized for the stakes I play, so it just doesn't apply, basically because GTO is optimal only when the opponents play GTO as well, which is pretty far from how they actually play.

As for the actual advice you give ("not at these stakes. esp not vs CO and his stats"), it's just wrong. It's precisely at these stakes versus a guy with those stats you can consider donking in the present situation. Read firsttsunami's post. Are you sure you know the basics of check/call, check/fold, and bet/fold? I doubt it. The only reason not to donk is that you give your hand away a bit, and over large sample of hand, you become uncalanced. If you had had the initiative, the bet would be a total nobrainer.

Then "I am trying to help you here. and I have basically ever since you went berzerk the very first time." Well, that sounds like another insult. In what way "help" do you mean? It sounds like you are only trying to collect some kind of weird points here. I did go berzerk once and you know why. I wrote you a message and apologized some time ago, but you didn't even care to respond to it.

/Johan

if you have all the basics down and ready to move on to the advanced stuff then why arent you playing 1/2+ already ? I haven't heard of you play above 1/2 reguarly yet. all i have heard is that you tilt away your money and continuously start over at the micros again.

and your once again clearly misunderstanding what im saying .. But you are right about one thing and that is that your stubborn and dont listen to advice very well and I find it VERY hard to explain / make you understand why the advice is given so that you apparently first fully accept it then.

once again i haven't tried to insult you not once in these posts. you take them as insults not me.

and regarding your pm i saw it and read it and wrote to you "its okay no problem" apparently you didnt recieve it so ill send it once again right now.

Ok. The message system b t w is buggy.

Cheers to peace, fish and low rake!

/Johan

cheers