33 SB vs BB 331r1add

Pre shove for sure. Only vs huge nits would I play r/f, but he's not one.

shove or limp/shove imo

open shove 20bb? what range do we shove 20bb?
as played call or fold?

Hi,

I would also open shove pre-flop
You can likely balance out shoving 33 if you also shove your spot with
22-77, Axs hands, KQ and some suited broadway hands which you don´t want to b/f.
If players sees shove as weakness you can also add up AT-AK your 20bb shove range

best regards,

I'd usually shove 22-66(-77). And also some Axs type of hands. With most of your range you will better of r/c or r/f-ing in this spot, but small pairs are way too strong in these spots, but when getting called they play poorly, also we don't want to induce a bunch of flip hands to shove.
Shove is unexploitable +EV, so with hands that are harder to play, I pick the certain +EV shove.

But our hand is face up when we open shove 20bb, and our open range weaknes when we have a 20 bb shoving range

I think vs a villain with this sample size it's not a big issue. Just because you openshove small pairs, he won't have any idea whether you also shove 88, A9s, KJo or other hands. Since he won't have enough sample to draw a conclusion about your whole range in this spot. So he'll think okay, you also have small pairs in your shoving range.

Our hand is not that face up, villain will only know that we will have maybe the middle of our range here, but still, even if it's face up there's no calling range of him against which our shove wouldn't be profitable.

(After raising I would call in this spot.)

i'm not saying that shoving isnt good or +EV play

i'm just saying that unknown is not that likely to shove wide range and imo is ok to pass small +EV spot in MTTs and take exploitable road cos skill edge and stuff

and also vs regs we have history with imo is ok to shove (22-55/A2-A7/K9+all face cards comboc, some SC combos etc) here vs regs who r on wideish shoving side to not have to call off and take a flip to reduce variance and probably raise call smth like 66+A7+KQ+

Rai/folding 20bbs with 33 here is just quite bad imo - you also have to factor in the playing post with 33 - it is not easy to play OOP and if you make some mistakes postflop then this "variance reduction" passing up on small EV choice can soon become a lot more unfavourable imo. Of course is near impossible to quantify this but still

limp/shove is a good idea like havislak said imo

But I really don't want to rai/f - in general we should be looking to chip up by restealing anyway and rai/fing a low PP that has no blocking value and is not so easy to play postflop yet is one of the better hands for equity vs calling ranges just makes no sense imo.

the problem here is that even villain is shoving as wide as this
http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 49.08% 48.46% 0.62% { 99-22, AQs-A2s, K2s+, Q3s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, AQo-A2o, K2o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
MP3 50.92% 50.31% 0.62% { 33 }

we have like +/- break evenish call, its basicly like r/c a2, cos ether we r fliping or we r way behind

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 49.07% 45.28% 3.79% { 99-22, AQs-A2s, K2s+, Q3s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, AQo-A2o, K2o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
MP3 50.93% 47.14% 3.79% { A2s, A2o }

and we do not always r/c A2 right?

in game i call he had 88 i hit 3 and suck out but after that i was thinking about ranges and figured out that imo r/c vs unkonws in that spot is kinda bet

although r/f looks bad i think we should be r/f in this spot like 1/3 of time, r/c 1/3 of time , and limp shoving 1/3 of time (with plan to stab any flop if villain ch behind)

Originally posted by TheRebuz
the problem here is that even villain is shoving as wide as this
http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 49.08% 48.46% 0.62% { 99-22, AQs-A2s, K2s+, Q3s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, AQo-A2o, K2o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
MP3 50.92% 50.31% 0.62% { 33 }

we have like +/- break evenish call, its basicly like r/c a2, cos ether we r fliping or we r way behind

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 49.07% 45.28% 3.79% { 99-22, AQs-A2s, K2s+, Q3s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, AQo-A2o, K2o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
MP3 50.93% 47.14% 3.79% { A2s, A2o }

and we do not always r/c A2 right?

in game i call he had 88 i hit 3 and suck out but after that i was thinking about ranges and figured out that imo r/c vs unkonws in that spot is kinda bet

although r/f looks bad i think we should be r/f in this spot like 1/3 of time, r/c 1/3 of time , and limp shoving 1/3 of time (with plan to stab any flop if villain ch behind)

yea but if we keep avoiding these break even calls and keep r/fing we are throwing money away

Hi all,

You could tell him in chat before you shove and then shove, it'd still be fine. I like it more than r/c. If ICM tax not so big, you can start to raise/call 44 and 55 to trap some more hands, but generally openshoving is very safe. These hands play horribly in the single raised pots anyway OOP.

Ok so u r all for shovin pre

How big stack we open shove pre sb vs bb with this range in mtts vs unoknowns?
When do we start r/f or r/4bet ai (and if we r like alwaus r/4betai with this range how big efectiv stacks do we 4 bet ai)

Range is as u all agreed 22-77/ax/kq suted broadway cards

At 23+bb we can start raising and 4betshoving over a 3bet. If he decides to 3betshove that's just unlucky for us.

My range is probably 22-55 at the start, and only adding AKo for balance if he starts adjusting

Originally posted by chenny8888
At 23+bb we can start raising and 4betshoving over a 3bet. If he decides to 3betshove that's just unlucky for us.

My range is probably 22-55 at the start, and only adding AKo for balance if he starts adjusting

so do i understand right

23+bb we r/4betai 22-55 and if he shoves we fold? what we do with 66+

what we do if stacks r like 30bb/35bb+ what range should we 4bet ai what range 4bet/call what range 4bet/f? what range we r/c see flop?

this is smth SB vs BB wars i dont really have a default play most of the times and i go by dinamic and want to hear other thoughts?

Just r/c 66+ vs the 3betshove unless he's a nit.

30-35bb is a discussion for another thread for sure, it's way off topic. But limping is OK with some range, and it's quite opponent/sizing dependent in a lot of spots. <23bb is easier because it's a lot more mathy, though with some dynamics you can start limping some hands too and that again makes it harder to solve.