Should i cbet this flop? Should i fold turn?

River card helped me fold, but i think he had a set!?!
he could even have JJ cause he 3bets IP only 4%
His fold to cbet is just 44% but like you see in the picture he stabs only 14%.... so he is loose passive

BTN looks very passive and bets strong vs. 2, better to fold. I would play it same way. Vs. 2 I do not see reason to bet flop.

now i think this is the perfect villain to x/f flop
or at least x/f turn.....2$ christmas present

On the flop I would always fire a bet in this spot with the intention of barreling any diamond, ace, or king. We don't want to give two opponents free equity to hit their junk, and it's an especially good spot to bet because of the backdoor flush draw. vs 1 opponent you can check back sometimes, but vs 2 you can't, especially vs passive opponents. The EV of betting here is likely higher than the EV of checking and free-rolling your equity along with everyone else, assuming our passive opponent checks behind (which he'll do the vast majority of the time).

If you do check/call the flop and turn an A, I would definitely not check my hand to the button. I'm just donking into this opponent and firing the river, too. I'd expect the button to check back most of the time and then we miss a street of value which is silly.

Originally posted by VaskataBuci
Vs. 2 I do not see reason to bet flop.

vs 2 opponents with hero holding a vulnerable no-pair hand that has potential, their check/folding range can harm us.

Our hand is not vulnerable on flop. Our hand is like a " draw " hand with a little bit of shwdnvalue which still isn't relevant since the hand is multiway. A hand like 22 would be vulnerable.

I think both options are fine, cbetting and checking back the flop with this.

i think we can cbet, as played just xf flop.
the absolute best of scenarios after a bet and a call is that btn has air and sb has a draw, but mostly we cant even be sure that our outs are live. nothing good can come out of this in the long run

Originally posted by Drew94

Originally posted by VaskataBuci
Vs. 2 I do not see reason to bet flop.

vs 2 opponents with hero holding a vulnerable no-pair hand that has potential, their check/folding range can harm us.

Do you expect both opponents to fold to a cbet? I could agree to a cbet if we are last to act otf, but between 2 I don't like it.

we are UTG betting multiway and the flop is fairly unconnected, regs can fold pp on the flop or at least on turns that are good for us

Yes middlepairs should fold but against the range that folds we have a decent equity and mostly they are going to let us freeroll equity so imo both options are fine.

Originally posted by tukioppilas62
Our hand is not vulnerable on flop. Our hand is like a " draw " hand with a little bit of shwdnvalue which still isn't relevant since the hand is multiway. A hand like 22 would be vulnerable.

I think both options are fine, cbetting and checking back the flop with this.

Same difference, except AK here is a clear bet whereas 22 is not. AK has much stronger potential than 22. We want to take down pots multi-way with hands like this which have equity to improve against calling ranges. I'm not sure if you're fussing over what the word "vulnerable" means or not, but AK with backdoor flush has betting potential whereas 22 doesn't.

We should be aggressive in multi-way pots at lower limits. Just because we get called by two players with huge cold call stats and the flop comes dry jack-high, there is no reason to give up on the hand. 2 people call instead of 1 and suddenly our confidence goes down. We don't have a huge equity edge here so I don't know why you'd want to free-roll. I don't know how you guys are playing at lower limits but that is ridiculous.

Against tighter opponents with below average cold calling stats it would be true that we have decent equity vs the check/folding range of 2 people, but that is not the case here. And even if that is the case, we can still fold out better hands with an aggressive plan of action. If we can fold out better hands + worse hands that can kill us on the turn & river, why wouldn't we bet?

Originally posted by VaskataBuci
Do you expect both opponents to fold to a cbet? I could agree to a cbet if we are last to act otf, but between 2 I don't like it.

Yeah having position over all the players would be ideal, but we also get more fold equity when we bet from a sandwiched position. You're betting multi-way and into one opponent who hasn't even acted yet.

As far as being aggressive in multi-way pots is concerned, this is one of the better spots to do it in.

I didn't mean we should bet 22 here.

And yes I would probably cbet it most of the time too, but I don't beleave that the EV of betting is realy that much higher than the EV of checking. Once we hit the ace or flushdraw on turn there are many good scenarios "where lower limits players" are going to donate money with 2nd best hands more than one street.

so just x/f turn and stop the spew on turn?

if i were making a cbet then i would be tempted to barrel turn when i hit the A which seems like a bad thing...
and on river i would x/f and be very tempted to x/c since his AF is higher on river

checking flop and turn made me fold because i see he has very low stab%

Originally posted by tukioppilas62
I didn't mean we should bet 22 here.

And yes I would probably cbet it most of the time too, but I don't beleave that the EV of betting is realy that much higher than the EV of checking. Once we hit the ace or flushdraw on turn there are many good scenarios "where lower limits players" are going to donate money with 2nd best hands more than one street.

Sounds good

Yeah I'm probably over-estimating the EV of betting vs checking a bit, but at least there's no doubt it's higher.

Originally posted by bonecore
so just x/f turn and stop the spew on turn?

if i were making a cbet then i would be tempted to barrel turn when i hit the A which seems like a bad thing...
and on river i would x/f and be very tempted to x/c since his AF is higher on river

checking flop and turn made me fold because i see he has very low stab%

A basic plan of action would be barreling on Queens, Aces, Kings, Diamonds and Tens.

You shouldn't feel like you need to barrel every turn.

Passive opponent woke up with a hand this time, but it's not going to be like that most of the time.