QQ overpair vs EP - can't I raise cbet for value?

I'm very new to NL so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Firstly and it sounds like you didn't consider this, what was your rationale behind just flatting the open pre? I feel this should be a 3-bet. We're ahead of his range and in position.

As played I would probably call flop then fold A/K and some bad straight turns otherwise call again to re-evaluate river hoping he checks so we can make a valuebet.

I feel like when we raise the flop he has to b/f with his pairs that might VB turn.

3bet or flat pre, depending on Villain are both fine.

Now on the flop, if you consider Villain's continuing range vs your raise... you will see that
you are not happy at all.. any spade, 4, 8, A, K on the turn will put you in a marginal spot...

Yes, now you are ahead of his betting range... but vs his calling the raise range you are mostly flipping, or behind...or you will even fold the best hand vs further pressure... too often to justify a flop raise..

That is, I would just call the flop to re evaluate the turn

Agree that there are too many cards that we do not see. QQ is a hand we can lose big pot and I would not be wise to pump the pot.

Originally posted by asimos
Now on the flop, if you consider Villain's continuing range vs your raise... you will see that
you are not happy at all.. any spade, 4, 8, A, K on the turn will put you in a marginal spot...

asimos, if we dont like many cards that can come on the turn... this raise isnt good to try to put an end in the hand right there were w still ahead vs villain range?

If u make things even clearer, I would appreciate it.

Originally posted by Afulibador

Originally posted by asimos
Now on the flop, if you consider Villain's continuing range vs your raise... you will see that
you are not happy at all.. any spade, 4, 8, A, K on the turn will put you in a marginal spot...

asimos, if we dont like many cards that can come on the turn... this raise isnt good to try to put an end in the hand right there were w still ahead vs villain range?

If u make things even clearer, I would appreciate it.

We are ahead of Villain's betting range to justify a flop call.
To justify a fop raise we have to perform well vs Villain's continuing range.

Vs the part of Villain's range which folds vs the flop raise QQ performs well most of the times.
That is, you make hands fold vs which you won't have trouble later (though hand reading is crucial).
Also have in mind that this board isn't a good board to cbet bluff. Thus, Villain usually will have sth he wants to continue. (usually he value bets, or semi-bluffs). So to try to put an end to the hand is optimistic... though would be a welcome outcome

Thanks for the answer, asimos ♠_drink:
I got the thing of performing vs those different ranges we ll face depending on wich route we get... like, if we just call we keep hands like TT, for example... that have poor equity against us anyway. Interesting.

After thinking a bit, maybe being able to put an end right there really was a bit optimistic thought.

Firstly and it sounds like you didn't consider this, what was your rationale behind just flatting the open pre? I feel this should be a 3-bet. We're ahead of his range and in position.

I think QQ plays well in multiway pot, and vs UTG if I 3bet, I will usually get no 4bet bluffs at this limit at least. Also his calling preflop OOP range in those positions will be super tight, so I do not get that much value I guess. So I like flatting.

Thanks

Just one note : use equilab and see how your equity changes when HU and when mw. The big pairs lose equity when mw.

Originally posted by nitrol
Just one note : use equilab and see how your equity changes when HU and when mw. The big pairs lose equity when mw.

you mean preflop?

MP2 51.01% 50.63% 0.39% QQ
MP3 22.08% 20.70% 1.38% 55+, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, AJo+, KQo
CO 26.90% 25.79% 1.11% AKs, AJs, 76s, AKo, AJo

did not put all hands which can late position players call, but to get an idea this might be enough. So far 50 % looks not bad in 3way.

Now make it vs1oponent and see the difference.

It is important to be aware of the point Nitrol is making. It is a mathematical fact that is impossible to get away from. Then add to that the ease with which we can lose the stack with an overpair when multi-way and overestimating the value of the hand.

Originally posted by nitrol
Now make it vs1oponent and see the difference.

to be HU, I need to 3bet and he needs to call OOP:

If he calls smth like this:
Equity Win Tie
MP2 66.53% 64.68% 1.85% QQ
MP3 33.47% 31.62% 1.85% QQ-TT, AKs, AKo

we are very good. But the problem is when he 4bets, he can do that with KK+, so we have to fold. I do not want to fold QQ to 4bet

Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c
I think QQ plays well in multiway pot,

It was addressed to this statement. All big pairs do not "like" mw pots. As you already saw, their equity drops when mw.

Originally posted by SPeedFANat1c

Originally posted by nitrol
Now make it vs1oponent and see the difference.

to be HU, I need to 3bet and he needs to call OOP:

If he calls smth like this:
Equity Win Tie
MP2 66.53% 64.68% 1.85% QQ
MP3 33.47% 31.62% 1.85% QQ-TT, AKs, AKo

we are very good. But the problem is when he 4bets, he can do that with KK+, so we have to fold. I do not want to fold QQ to 4bet

You forget that you also have 100% equity versus the hands he is folding. That is money in the bank.