Hand Reading & Fun Lines: Episode 1 -- Jokerstars Special

Hi there,

First of all, analyzing your text, you have some sort of a mind-set problem, maybe even tilt problem here. He is not a donkey or there's no jokerstars special, it's just a set-up if you happened to lose.

To the hand itself - if he is an aggressive player, I like your check on flop. On turn, I'd raise way bigger to get more value from him. Like 8 bb could be okay here.

River... After my turn line, you could make him go all-in. If he had a better hand, then it's a no-can-do situation. If not, then you got the max value.

I don't see any other problems here than your river bet size. I believe villain would have cbet Kx and bet turn bigger so if he doesn't have that Kx what will he call? He will fold almost his entire range except very very stupidly played 88 and 99.

Are you really qualified to make an analysis of my mental state based on 1 short post?! You should perhaps questions your own need to lecture others on their *mind-set*.
*Donk* *Fish* *LAGtard* are all common parlance in poker to describe certain players -- or more accurately certain playing styles -- because we are not really playing people we are playing a style.

I migh assume you are a college student from the USA and hugely over-occupied with political correctness? Maybe so maybe not. How does it feel to be analyzed this way? Of course you are probably Russian.

And as for your uber-pointless *no Jokerstars* comment -- if you cannot see the irony of not getting a set for 2-3 DAYS then getting two with the same hands within 10 minutes and both all-in pots then frankly it looks like you had a sense-of-humor bypass at an earlier age. How can you be so ANAL?

The whole point of this post is that it is MEANT to be light hearted -- yes that does mean mocking my opponents sometimes -- because of the ridiculous play they make or how they respond to ridiculous plays. That is the point. That is why I asked for people's comments about ranges.

Poker does not have to be serious all the time -- although presumably you think so? I am poking fun at a shockingly bad play. At some point I might even offer a bounty if anyone can guess Villain's hand. IT'S MEANT TO BE FUN. Do you hear me?

And as villain is entirely unknown I am mocking a virtual or unreal person. Personas people adopt at the table are also unreal -- just like the one you have adopted in your reply. Perhaps you can let yourself off the hook every so often and learn to relax instead of needing to judge people or feeling so much pain at perceived bad taste. My recommendation is you try watching something funny on YouTube before your next session or before you answer any more of my posts.

Have a nice day!

EDIT: You also assume I lost the hand -- not unreasonable considering most people post hands they lost with -- but your assumptions may be the problem here -- not my text. Consider that -- if you can -- I won this hand!

I think your post just prove my point. But anyway, there's so much different kinds of "donkeys". You know, some people just donk 1bb, some donk big with random hands, some donk big with good hands and are passive otherwise.. It should be determined better to know the exact situation.

And about the hand, I said that if you lost, it's a bad beat. If you won, you got max-value.

Ps. I'm from Finland actually

That was great.. I think CPallo just tried to help you. Mindset and mental problems makes huge impact in our game. I find CPallo's post quite friendly. You were telling about your bad run and he just assumed you might have tilting problems that affects your play. Your super aggressive childish idiotic rage post just proves him right. He wrote two sentences about a problem that you might have and your reaction was a wall of shit and this:

How can you be so ANAL?

People who tilt usually tell us that kind of stories so CPallo's post was ok in my opinion. The fact that you think about not getting sets in last 2k hands already tells me that it might be affecting your game..

ps. Only fish donktards call me fish when I call their stupid bluff and outplay them.
Pps. GO FINLAND!

Originally posted by la55i


That was great.. I think CPallo just tried to help you. Mindset and mental problems makes huge impact in our game. I find CPallo's post quite friendly. You were telling about your bad run and he just assumed you might have tilting problems that affects your play. Your super aggressive childish idiotic rage post just proves him right. He wrote two sentences about a problem that you might have and your reaction was a wall of shit and this:

How can you be so ANAL?

People who tilt usually tell us that kind of stories so CPallo's post was ok in my opinion. The fact that you think about not getting sets in last 2k hands already tells me that it might be affecting your game..

ps. Only fish donktards call me fish when I call their stupid bluff and outplay them.
Pps. GO FINLAND!

Remember Paisting? ♦ But thanks for the support. And for the OP: I didn't try to insult you. Like La55i said, I just tried to point out that it MIGHT be a problem, and that sort of a problem usually affects majorly in your winrate.

You assumed a lot in your response -- too much in fact. You put yourself into the words I used -- you started the post with your analysis of my mental state based on what? Your own opinion of what the words were used for -- behind which was the assumption that I probably lost and felt aggrieved. Claim a proof if you want -- its actually not a proof at all -- it merely demonstrates that *proof* can never be absolute.

The post was meant to be humorous -- it is about using crazy plays for value against Fish that think crazy plays are always bluffs (which would have been more apparent in later posts in this line). I was intending more posts along these lines as I was hoping to develop a line of discussion about -- and quite a funny series they would be too! But your dead-pan humorless and inaccurate response has lessened my enthusiasm for more posts considerably.

Political Correctness snaps at even the slightest (perceived) use of words -- and that is exactly what your comments look like to me. Go read your words again and see when you use the words *not* and *no*. These words are not words that are *helpful* -- they are *prohibitive*.

I have seen others use the term *Jokerstars* when talking about horrible suckouts and I thought it was funny. Your reference to this was tedious to say the least. In this case though -- it was not a suckout -- but the post was designed to at least allow that possibility as it influences a LOT of thinking/reacting at the tables -- as I am sure you have read about somewhere too.

The fact your are from Finland mitigates things somewhat -- as I like the Scandinavian countries a lot -- I lived in Sweden for 8 years -- and I know that many top poker players come from those countries. Maybe they need to get out more ... LOL (it's the cold winters see).

Oh and just so you know -- the term *Donkey* does just refer to people who donk bet. Donk betting can be a useful strategy against some players -- and calling someone a *Donk* does not mean they are always donk-betting. In fact I believe the term *donk-bet* is more a descriptive term used for the betting style and the term *Donkey* is a reference to their playing style overall (i.e. not the sharpest of the bunch) -- they are not actually referring to the same thing. At least that is my understanding -- but of course I might be tilting.

La55i -- I was not born yesterday. You talk here as if everyone needs to hear your opinion. When all you are doing is regurgitating stuff you have read or learned from others. Please be more original.

*You were telling about your bad run*

Actaully -- I *mentioned it* and did not make it a story! The point was -- and we have a joke in the UK about buses along this line -- you get no sets for hours and hours then two identical ones come along at the same time. It was IRONIC.

*Your super aggressive childish idiotic rage post just proves him right.*

No it does not -- although clearly you believe this! All you have done here is look for evidence that you were right and have not considered alternative explanations. Let me give you a piece of advice -- if you do this when you play poker you are going to struggle! It is important to consider alternatives ALWAYS and give room for those possibilities -- being able to do this well is what separates players who read the game from those who just do what they read (on forums/in books).

*People who tilt usually tell us that kind of stories*

You are living in the past. You are assuming a lot based on your interpretation of what other people do and say. In this case you are very wrong.

Do you understand what I mean? Or am I still on tilt?

EDIT: *Pps. GO FINLAND*
Your need to take sides says a lot more about you than anything you said in your post. DO you want me to elaborate?

You should be more open to opinions when you post at hand discussion and ask for opinions. You completely over reacted when his post was not insulting, not negative or anything bad. Thus you only proved that you are indeed a VERY tilt prone person.

Just my 2 cents

poompah,
I think that if you are not ready to withstand criticism, you should not post hands here. I would be very glad if someone put my play to the test, to ask me questions and confront me. In this way I will get better.
CPallo didn't do anything wrong. From your first post my first guess was the same- you tell the hand as if it was a film story, a lot of emotions and feelings. Guess what, you play nl5. I prefer staying on the coolhead side. Too many emotions can mess up with the sharp mind and misslead you. ( Now you can tell me in a 2m post how stupid I am, I will read it with peasure )

In this hand I will make a little change - I will not push with my whole stack as this looks very scary and villain may fold some hands that in other size he is inclined to call. Make it 40BB - exactly to make him AI.

Poker is a game of incomplete information and sometimes we have to make assumptions. I have a strong population read that players who are on tilt come to forums to talk about their bad runs. I have done it too. CPallo might have misinterpreted the point of your post but you also totally misinterpreted his. And then you attacked him.. Now you are attacking me.

You talk here as if everyone needs to hear your opinion. When all you are doing is regurgitating stuff you have read or learned from others.

I think you really needed to hear my opinion. I have a right to tell you my opinion whether you like it or not. If you don't like me, you can just ignore my posts or stop using this forum. I don't really care what you do or what you think. I did not interpret CPallo's post the way you did and I found your attack pretty rediculous. Is that your normal behavior?
Poker is a very difficult game to master. Of course I have read things and learned from others. I believe you have too. Even professionals get coaching.
Ps. You taught me a new word. Thanks for that.

No it does not -- although clearly you believe this! All you have done here is look for evidence that you were right and have not considered alternative explanations.

Welllllll, normally people don't just flip like that and start calling other people assholes. Maybe you are not tilted because of poker but CPallo's post made you tilt for sure.

Do you understand what I mean? Or am I still on tilt?

"You should perhaps questions your own need to lecture others on their *mind-set*.
How can you be so ANAL?
IT'S MEANT TO BE FUN. Do you hear me?
My recommendation is you try watching something funny on YouTube before your next session or before you answer any more of my posts.
Consider that -- if you can -- I won this hand!"

So basically instead of interpreting this post as a rage post ( you clearly are a bit mad :sifflote:) or as an attack against CPallo who only tried to help you, I should consider other alternatives and think that it is possible that you meant this to be kind and warm and humorous post?

EDIT: *Pps. GO FINLAND*
Your need to take sides says a lot more about you than anything you said in your post. DO you want me to elaborate?

Ooops.. Did you fell for your own trap? I didn't take sides. I meant that as a joke. Didn't you consider other alternatives?

Man, Episode 1 got so hot.... I cannot wait for Episode2 ...

I don't really care what you do or what you think.

And yet you made a number of replies telling me your opinion and display concern...

Maybe sleepwalking through your life can be fun if the dream you are having is good! LMFAO

Actually nitrol -- there are a number of posters on this forum whose opinion I really value and yours in one of them -- although sometimes your replies do not contain much reasoning which makes them hard to *get* immediately -- nonetheless you make posts worth reading...

What pissed me off was the arrogance with which CPallo decided the thread was more about (his idea of) my *problem mind-set* than anything else.
His passive-aggressive style (go look it up anyone who does not know what this means) is the preferred method of those who wish to attack (usually by implication) without ever being brave enough to stand up and be seen doing that -- they belittle while at the same time courting the sympathy of those around them.

For *But I am just a girl* read *I was trying to help*

And this is a very big sickness in our over-politicized society. I been around long enough to know what it is -- many of you guys probably have not. I do not buy it -- and will call it out when I see it.

His first words were:

First of all, analyzing your text, you have some sort of a mind-set problem

This is not a helpful comment. It is an arrogant one. I somehow doubt much analysis took place -- as he does not give any indication of his logic or reasons. In fact his entire opinion seems more based on what other people have done in other posts elsewhere. This is called *pigeon-holing* and it is the preferred practice of those who need to live by rules.

I agree -- my initial post did kind of look like a bad beat post -- presumably because I called SB a 'donkey* and used the word *Jokerstars*. Apparently this is enough to decide I have mental problems, am on tilt and need *help*. Oh yes and I mentioned not getting a set for a while (exactly how the f**k does that imply tilt? -- it was a factual statement -- if it appears emotional then wow -- you guys must have green blood and pointy ears!).

What is probably true is I was pretty pissed off when I was making the reply -- and not just because of CPallo's arrogance -- it was a bad day overall for entirely non-poker related reasons!

*A little knowledge is a dangerous thing*

Apparently -- to be qualified to make judgements about a persons character -- how they play poker -- if they are a tilt-monkey -- all you have to do is watch a few videos online -- read the summary to a Tommy Angelo book and have a copy of Doyle Brunson's *Super System* on your shelves somewhere (even if you never read it).

And let's not forget watching *Rounders* 10 times...

I have worked with a number of psychologists, therapists, coaches in other walks of life and have an understanding of just how much work and study needs to be done to even begin to unpick the workings of the mind. Most people project themselves onto others (me included!) and cannot separate what they think they know about someone else and what they are recognizing about themselves that is being triggered in the other.

The implication is that CPallo has mental problems and is prone to tilt. Because that is what he saw first in my post -- he saw himself -- and it triggered his response.

Likewise La55i -- if the same La55i that plays 5NL on Pokerstars -- clearly has trouble applying the theory he learns here to the game and evidently has aggression problems of his own.

Apologies to all if I over-reacted -- yes I did -- but I do like a good fight...

EDIT:
*I think that if you are not ready to withstand criticism, you should not post hands here. I would be very glad if someone put my play to the test, to ask me questions and confront me. In this way I will get better.*

CPallo did not put my play to the test in his opening remarks -- he ignored my play and talked about how I wrote my post!!
And if you really think my opening lines were *full of emotion* and *like a film story* then I wonder how long your attention span is. Most films last at least 80 minutes...
I am sorry but you guys have got to be Vulcans if you think that was an emotional opening! How can you talk about *enjoying the game* if you do not have any emotions?
You cannot have it both ways -- you cannot have fun without experiencing upset -- the mind does not work that way. It's not about not having emotions -- that would involve practicing a disconnect of life-threatening proportions IMO. The trick is to feel what you feel but still act appropriately. It seems to me a lot of people here think they can somehow switch off being human and be a robot.
Trust me -- that is NOT a good habit to practice -- that is when the poker demons have got you!!

PS
Do you really think I have a future in film-writing?

normally people don't just flip like that and start calling other people assholes

Please feel free to direct everyone's attention to the post where I use the word *asshole*. I do not believe I did that.

I did say he was being *anal* but that is completely different -- and if you are not familiar with this form of parlance please go to Wikipedia and look up *Anal retentiveness*).

EDIT:
From Wikipedia *those who reject anal-retentive characteristics are said to have "anal-expulsive" personality types.*
So I guess we know which one I am now ROFL

FWIW here is the full hand history including showdown -- not provided in my initial (over-emotional / tilted / film script / mentally-imbalanced) post:

PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BB): 217.6 BB
UTG: 146 BB (VPIP: 23.74, PFR: 18.26, 3Bet Preflop: 5.48, Hands: 220)
MP: 100 BB (VPIP: 25.42, PFR: 18.64, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 61)
CO: 128.4 BB (VPIP: 23.46, PFR: 17.28, 3Bet Preflop: 5.36, Hands: 170)
BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 35.00, PFR: 30.00, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 20)
SB: 46.8 BB (VPIP: 68.00, PFR: 18.00, 3Bet Preflop: 4.35, Hands: 52)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 4♦ 4♣

fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to 2 BB, Hero calls 1 BB

Flop: (4 BB, 2 players) K♠ 8♣ 9♠
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (4 BB, 2 players) 4♥
SB bets 1 BB, Hero raises to 4.8 BB, SB calls 3.8 BB

River: (13.6 BB, 2 players) K♥
SB checks, Hero bets 210.8 BB and is all-in, SB calls 40 BB and is all-in

Hero shows 4♦ 4♣ (Full House, Fours full of Kings)
(Pre 69%, Flop 80%, Turn 100%)
SB shows A♠ 2♥ (One Pair, Kings)
(Pre 31%, Flop 20%, Turn 0%)
Hero wins 89.8 BB

Stand up all those who think Villain was NOT a donkey? What? You still here?

There was a 44 hand prior to this one with same villain -- which to be fair I did not give details of (I did mention it) -- which made me believe SB would call a shove light. Maybe not this light...

I may post it another time -- but maybe the risk of being seen as *too emotional* is just too much to bear...

Who was it that said *If you don't make a complete idiot of yourself at the table at least once or twice then you are doing it wrong!*
I adopt the same philosophy in my Forum posts

Hey everyone,

Can we please get the discussion back to the hand in question?

Thank you.