Hello,
started playing spin & gos at Pokerstars and want to improve my game.
Having a license for the Sit and go Wizzard, I started doing some quizzes.
Several times I encountered a 20bb push from sb into bb (blind level 15/30 hero in sb with 590chips). My previous range for the push at that early stage was only 5% of hands, but the wizzard says: push all of them! 100 %. Don't get the concept. When I'm down to just one or two big blinds and someone raises all in, I understand that even with the worst hands I have to call. I still have some equity with it and it wouldn't be worth waiting for a better hand anymore.
What is the theory of pushing so much on an early stage? Because it also contradicts my usual game plan of creating a supertight image, which I'm going to take advantage of later at the 20/40 or 30/60 blind level.
Thanks
Pushing 20bb with every hand, is suicide. Maybe it has something to do with ICM and bubble play, but I don't understand this either. 
Pushing 100% is indeed ridicules or we are playing against a nit or short stack, but against a 500 stack i would prefer min-raise fold most of the time against a tight player.
Cheers,
SDK1987
If the software suggests to push with a 100% range then your opponent will have a huge leak in his game.
Example:
Effective stack size: 20bb
SB vs. BB
The BB calls a SB all-in only with AA-TT,AKs-ATs,KQs,AKo-AJo,KQo
Whatis the optimal SB pushing range?
Answer: 100% range.
Because the BB is folding 92.60% of the time so the SB can push with any2 cards. This is of course not the max. EV strategy because some hands have a better expecation value when you just open for example instead of going directly all-in.
But in a push or fold game the best strategy is to go all-in with any2 cards.
Pushing with 20bb may look too much and it is but there are cases which a program such as SNG Wizard or ICMizer might tell you to push with that stack.
One on these cases is a wrong setup of your opponents i.e. they play very tight according to program.
The other case may be the rising antes which adjust your stack to them, causing your stack to shrink by an increased adjusted big blind.
A third case is the effective stack; a 20bb means 8bb if you're pushing against an 8bb stack.
I can't think of anything else. ICM plays a role on the number of big blinds but 20bb is too much in normal conditions.
Originally posted by CocaPLOla
20bb sb vs BB push range only 22-55
Without antes in play I wouldn’t have a shove range at all or we are playing out of position against 2 fishy players with a medium strength hand.
Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD & Database
NL Holdem $100(BB)
HERO ($1225)
BB ($1775)
Dealt to Hero A♥ K♦
HERO Raises To $150 (Rem. Stack: 1025), BB Raises To $1675 (allin) (Rem. Stack: 0), HERO Calls $1025 (allin) (Rem. Stack: 0)
Flop ($3000) A♦ T♠ 2♦
Turn ($3000) A♦ T♠ 2♦ 7♠
River ($3000) A♦ T♠ 2♦ 7♠ 6♥
BB shows T♣ T♦
BB wins $3000
Now, with my sitting at 12 bb's here and holding AKo, everyone on earth is going to agree that I call villain's shove, right? Why? What are we ever ahead of with AK in this situation or any other all in? At best, we're looking at less than a coin flip's chance.
Should I have folded AK here? How is that not the right play?
After finally sitting down and really studying, playing, and analyzing a couple of hundred of these games I see everything much differently now and my question isn't even applicable to me at this point.
Originally posted by vlzvl
ICM plays a role on the number of big blinds but 20bb is too much in normal conditions.
There is no ICM In Heads Up Sngs ....
Originally posted by TakingAShot
After finally sitting down and really studying, playing, and analyzing a couple of hundred of these games I see everything much differently now and my question isn't even applicable to me at this point.
You can never fold AKo @ 12 bb unless u have a really solid read. Even if someone goes all-in for 12bb with a range of AA-QQ,AKs-AQs,AKo-AQo a call with AKo has still an EV of +1.33
-If some one is open shoving for 12bb then you need 45.87% equity for the call.
-If you min-open-raise and some one goes all-in for 12bb then you need 41.66% for a call.
The variance is big it can happend that you run 10 games in a row in the better hand.
Originally posted by CptJokerFish
Originally posted by vlzvl
ICM plays a role on the number of big blinds but 20bb is too much in normal conditions.There is no ICM In Heads Up Sngs ....
Originally posted by TakingAShot
After finally sitting down and really studying, playing, and analyzing a couple of hundred of these games I see everything much differently now and my question isn't even applicable to me at this point.You can never fold AKo @ 12 bb unless u have a really solid read. Even if someone goes all-in for 12bb with a range of AA-QQ,AKs-AQs,AKo-AQo a call with AKo has still an EV of +1.33
-If some one is open shoving for 12bb then you need 45.87% equity for the call.
-If you min-open-raise and some one goes all-in for 12bb then you need 41.66% for a call.The variance is big it can happend that you run 10 games in a row in the better hand.
Just to go off topic for a minute so I can pick your brain: What's your advice for AKo/s in cash games?
Originally posted by TakingAShot
Originally posted by CptJokerFish
Originally posted by vlzvl
ICM plays a role on the number of big blinds but 20bb is too much in normal conditions.There is no ICM In Heads Up Sngs ....
Originally posted by TakingAShot
After finally sitting down and really studying, playing, and analyzing a couple of hundred of these games I see everything much differently now and my question isn't even applicable to me at this point.You can never fold AKo @ 12 bb unless u have a really solid read. Even if someone goes all-in for 12bb with a range of AA-QQ,AKs-AQs,AKo-AQo a call with AKo has still an EV of +1.33
-If some one is open shoving for 12bb then you need 45.87% equity for the call.
-If you min-open-raise and some one goes all-in for 12bb then you need 41.66% for a call.The variance is big it can happend that you run 10 games in a row in the better hand.
Just to go off topic for a minute so I can pick your brain: What's your advice for AKo/s in cash games?
In HU CAP I would get it in. I 100bb HU games going broke with AK is probably standard but I dont know how the population plays. I could imagine that the people dont shove loose enough lol.
Just put your opponent on a range and then calculate your EV. I would prefer a software for that. (Cardrunners-EV)
Even the free version of Cardrunners is good enough for preflop spots.
Originally posted by CptJokerFish
Originally posted by TakingAShot
Originally posted by CptJokerFish
Originally posted by vlzvl
ICM plays a role on the number of big blinds but 20bb is too much in normal conditions.There is no ICM In Heads Up Sngs ....
Originally posted by TakingAShot
After finally sitting down and really studying, playing, and analyzing a couple of hundred of these games I see everything much differently now and my question isn't even applicable to me at this point.You can never fold AKo @ 12 bb unless u have a really solid read. Even if someone goes all-in for 12bb with a range of AA-QQ,AKs-AQs,AKo-AQo a call with AKo has still an EV of +1.33
-If some one is open shoving for 12bb then you need 45.87% equity for the call.
-If you min-open-raise and some one goes all-in for 12bb then you need 41.66% for a call.The variance is big it can happend that you run 10 games in a row in the better hand.
Just to go off topic for a minute so I can pick your brain: What's your advice for AKo/s in cash games?
In HU CAP I would get it in. I 100bb HU games going broke with AK is probably standard but I dont know how the population plays. I could imagine that the people dont shove loose enough lol.
Just put your opponent on a range and then calculate your EV. I would prefer a software for that. (Cardrunners-EV)
Even the free version of Cardrunners is good enough for preflop spots.
I should have been more specific: I was asking you specifically about AKo/s in 6max or full ring cash games. As for CardrunnersEV, I have the full version along with GTO+ and Flopzilla.
Originally posted by TakingAShot
Originally posted by CptJokerFish
Originally posted by TakingAShot
Originally posted by CptJokerFish
Originally posted by vlzvl
ICM plays a role on the number of big blinds but 20bb is too much in normal conditions.There is no ICM In Heads Up Sngs ....
Originally posted by TakingAShot
After finally sitting down and really studying, playing, and analyzing a couple of hundred of these games I see everything much differently now and my question isn't even applicable to me at this point.You can never fold AKo @ 12 bb unless u have a really solid read. Even if someone goes all-in for 12bb with a range of AA-QQ,AKs-AQs,AKo-AQo a call with AKo has still an EV of +1.33
-If some one is open shoving for 12bb then you need 45.87% equity for the call.
-If you min-open-raise and some one goes all-in for 12bb then you need 41.66% for a call.The variance is big it can happend that you run 10 games in a row in the better hand.
Just to go off topic for a minute so I can pick your brain: What's your advice for AKo/s in cash games?
In HU CAP I would get it in. I 100bb HU games going broke with AK is probably standard but I dont know how the population plays. I could imagine that the people dont shove loose enough lol.
Just put your opponent on a range and then calculate your EV. I would prefer a software for that. (Cardrunners-EV)
Even the free version of Cardrunners is good enough for preflop spots.I should have been more specific: I was asking you specifically about AKo/s in 6max or full ring cash games. As for CardrunnersEV, I have the full version along with GTO+ and Flopzilla.
Depends on your position and opponent.
But on micros the most people play only with KK+ for stacks ... Some people also with QQ+, AK
But with AK you are behind vs. this range in a 100b game. Just analyze the spots in cardrunners.