IS THIS FRAUD BY MY COACH AND STAKER???

Hey there, you have signed a contract with him for 1 mill hands only or you had other clauses in the contract ?

Hi bromsey96,

Welcome to PokerStrategy

I did read your post but I'm still a bit confused about what has happened. Do you have a contract that you have signed?

Also, I don't have that much experience with staking/CFP deals but if you have agreed on 1M hands and you have played those, and the guy has staked you, then I would say you owe him nothing? Isn't the idea in staking that the guy who stakes you takes the risk? It is not a loan. You play with his money and he takes a cut of your winnings but if you lose you don't owe him.

Originally posted by AgapieGheorghe
Hey there, you have signed a contract with him for 1 mill hands only or you had other clauses in the contract ?

Hey thanks for writing. We dont have signed contract just deal made talking. Yes, we had dead to play limits no results oriented, and I was playing limits i cant beat (microgaming nl50 at the begining), and then after i was dropped down because of 3 bad beats and loss without loking int omy game and analysing.

What would you do in my case?

Originally posted by la55i
Hi bromsey96,

Welcome to PokerStrategy

I did read your post but I'm still a bit confused about what has happened. Do you have a contract that you have signed?

Also, I don't have that much experience with staking/CFP deals but if you have agreed on 1M hands and you have played those, and the guy has staked you, then I would say you owe him nothing? Isn't the idea in staking that the guy who stakes you takes the risk? It is not a loan. You play with his money and he takes a cut of your winnings but if you lose you don't owe him.

Thank you for writing. We dont have official paper at all. I also think that way, he needs to take some risk. He made some promises, mislead me and there are no signs of getting out. I would just like hear some more opinions before any act and bring him eventually to this tread so he can tell his part of story.

Not having anything in paper makes things more difficult.. You can read what you have discussed from the chat logs (if you have any) and write down the things you have agreed on.

When should your deal end in your opinion? You talked about 1M hands and you have played those? Isn't the deal completed in that case?
Did you agree that this was a loan or a normal staking deal? If this was not a loan, to the best of my knowledge you shouldn't owe him anything. The person who stakes you takes the risk.

So if I have understood everything correctly it looks like that you can just walk away right now and forget about this. If the person who did stake you knows your real identity and contact information and he threatens you 1) go to the police 2) go kick his ass before he kicks yours

If you feel cheated and you think his actions have cost you some of your own money, I suggest you contact the police or a lawyer.

Originally posted by la55i
Not having anything in paper makes things more difficult.. You can read what you have discussed from the chat logs (if you have any) and write down the things you have agreed on.

When should your deal end in your opinion? You talked about 1M hands and you have played those? Isn't the deal completed in that case?
Did you agree that this was a loan or a normal staking deal? If this was not a loan, to the best of my knowledge you shouldn't owe him anything. The person who stakes you takes the risk.

So if I have understood everything correctly it looks like that you can just walk away right now and forget about this. If the person who did stake you knows your real identity and contact information and he threatens you 1) go to the police 2) go kick his ass before he kicks yours

If you feel cheated and you think his actions have cost you some of your own money, I suggest you contact the police or a lawyer.

The deal was that number of hands and if player is in MU at that time player has to play until he gets back to the 0. But in that million and far more I didnt have a single split and I was trying to do things as he told me. He also lied to me about his winnings, about his players. I mean, i cant spend whole life playing for him and obviously his way of work cant make me a winning player, and the thing that kills my will is that i dont know any other from group that is beating those limits in cash games.

I wouldnt like to come to those unpeasent things such as police, but if i have to i will do that. I came here to find help from other people from poker world, especialy coaching and staking, to hear others opinions. I want to solve that situation, i really dont want to waste any more time and energy on something that obviously doesnt work. And I dont want to be someone who is making mistake and bad thing, but I also dont want to be manipulated.

From some guys i heard suggestions such as: Just quit its not your problem, he is staker, he also needs to take risk. He promised you some things and he is not cleary good as he told, especialy in coaching. Some of them told me: You can make deal to reduce your makeup and continue playing those smaller limits. For example if makeup is 5k, to be 2.5k and I play nl30 til the end of the deal. And some recommended to give my own money, some part od makeup and quit the deal.

I just want to find out what is the right thing to do, and i think that soon i will have to include him also, so he can say what he has to tell and then people can tell their opinions.

Anyway, thank you for your response!

From the things you have told us, I have understood that the guy has not handled this professionally. If he has lied to you and the coaching is totally not in the level that you thought it would be, I think those could be good reasons to get out of the deal. I don't know where you live but in my country if the other person hasn't been truthful and has used some kind of a deception to get you to enter the deal, the contract can be declared void. Also if you have agreed on coaching and you have not got that, then he has also violated your contract.

I think it is also wrong, at least morally, to have a makeup clause in your contract while the guy who staked you also coaches you and pushes you to play on higher limits. I believe that in a normal staking deal you know the limits you will be playing and you know the risk, but here it is a bit different. Imo your coach/backer should take at least some of the risk.

One option that comes to my mind is to quit poker. I think the makeup in staking deal is not exactly the same as debt. If we assume that your deal was legal and totally fine and you have to complete it, then you have to keep paying him back from your poker winnings. But I think he can't force you to play and he can't force you to pay from your own money. So if you would just quit you don't owe him.

But yea it might be a good idea to hear his view on this situation also. Maybe we can then help you solve this

Originally posted by bromsey96
Then i found out that HE HAD AN EXTRA AFFILIATE THAT HE WAS TAKING ONLY FOR HIM, eventhoug the deal was 50 50 all the profits and all the rakeback. I was losing my money and energy and he was earning money secretly.

Yes, that is nothing uncommon. Some stabels have deals with poker sites so the stable sends you a link and you register your poker account with this link.
And if you produce x% rake then the stable will earn y% from your rake. So the stable will get this money from the poker site. There are some good affiliates out there where YOU get for example 40% of your produced rakeback. But your "coach" takes everything how it looks like.

Originally posted by bromsey96
I asked him to quit deal cause its not working he treathened me that he will go to my parents and ask for money i owe him. He repeated several times and try to scare me with words: Do you know gow much do you owe???

Does he have a copy of your ID-card? Or why does he know where you life? Ok, never mind thats not important. Let him go to your parents lol. I think they will understand what is going on.
I dont know you but maybe you have some mental weakness where the "coach" knows about. So he tries to put pressure on you to reach his goal. Maybe he is sure that he can force you to pay the lost money back. -----> 0% risk for him to lose any money.

I dont know how much rake you have already produced but lets make a quick calculation. So you have played 1 million hands from NL30-NL200. Lets say you have produced "only" 10.000$ rake im pretty sure that you have produced even much more rake.
Ok, now lets say he gets 35% of your rake (im would not be suprised if he would get even 45-50%): 10000 * 0,35 = 3500$ <-- That means that he would have get already 3500$ just for HIM. Ok, lets raise your rake: 15000 * 0,35 = 5250$ just for HIM. Maybe you can checkout how much rake you have produced.
But im sure that he will have made some money even with his money that you have lost.

Originally posted by bromsey96
Hey thanks for writing. We dont have signed contract just deal made talking. Yes, we had dead to play limits no results oriented, and I was playing limits i cant beat (microgaming nl50 at the begining), and then after i was dropped down because of 3 bad beats and loss without loking int omy game and analysing.
What would you do in my case?

The whole story sounds very shady to me. This "coach" must be a complete moron or a good scammer. So my advice to you is the following:
Put this guy on your skype ignorelist and never ever talk again with him. You are still in a very spot in my opinion because you havent made any contract on paper.
But even IF you would have made a paper contract I wouldnt be sure if this contract would be lawful.

You have waste so much time already (2 YEARS) with this guy so its time to stop. It´s also intersting that other people have made the same experience like you did. The shady part is that he was animating you all the time to play on high limits. I mean you said you have problems to win on NL25 and he said that you can beat NL50 ....
Just put him on ignore and dont think about his threats. As I said already it very likely that he has even got his money back from the affiliate deals.
You will find things like that also in the real world.

-> Take a weak person.
-> Seduce the person to make something dumb where you earn money.
-> Threat the person and say that you will tell anyone what this person is doing. So the person will keep doing dumb stuff just to get not disgraced by friends/family.
A very good example for this stuff is prostituten.

So until you have realized whats going on you have to stop. Maybe you will have to take some consecuences (in your case I even dont think that you will have to take any consecuences) but if you continue doing dumb stuff then you will be unhappy for your whole life. Its probably not easy in the beginning but after sometime you can look back and be happy about your decision: Then you can said if I would have continued then I would be still a very unhappy person and then you will realize that you have made the right decision.

No contract means no liability to cover anything. Just leave it at that IMHO or speak to someone with legal knowledge.

In germany its possible to make an oral contract. But no one can prove whats included in this contract.

just quit CG and player other format, nothing he can do.

Hi bromsey96,

Welcome to the forums and sorry to read you have had such awful time.
I would echo the views of la55i, UPAY4DINNER, CptJokerFish, AgapieGheorghe and BadHabit1989. But I would like to recommend we try and work out a plan to help you get back on track with poker. Thankfully there is a plethora of resources to help you out here. No point being stuck in the mud as its minus EV
Getting your confidence backand your A game is what you should focus on!!
I know you have already been playing at a high level but would recommend refreshing yourself with the basics, and start a fresh. Our coach conidant91 did a great series No-Limit Beginner's Course [2017 edition] worth checking out.
Have a look at the https://forums.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=325001
By taking part you will profit from the following advantages:
• By documenting your progress and career you will increase both your motivation and endurance.
• You will work on your game automatically by discussing tricky spots with other members.
• During a downswing you will profit from psychological support and encouragement.
• With time passing by you will get to know a lot of cool people and even build some friendships.

Other good ways to help improve your game are by posting difficult hands to our Hand Discussion Board.

We also have Live coaching each week and you can find more information about that here

Another one of our coaches worth visiting is LemOn36 who runs some of our live coaching on a variety of NL related topics.

When it comes to the mental game it is worth having a look at a article called 'The quick guide to skyrocketing your (poker) productivity' by Schnitzelfisch
Other helpful articles you may find interesting, Perfect intro to multi tabling and
5-point plan: From break-even grinder to winning player

All in all I believe that by addressing the issues you have been experiencing with us is the first step towards what I hope will be a successful poker career for you, be it cash or another format.

If you need any more help please don't hesitate to ask

My regards

Matt

Just my 2 cents, putting college aside for poker is really bad real life play....

reading this post was like reading a horror story from a gambling addict, not a professional poker player.

You need to decide how much time & money you can place in poker without hurting yourself.

Afaik
on Natural8 etc. it's been common practice that someone from a stable gets a separate account, gets people on it and gets part of your rake
Thing is that you get the same % as you would otherwise and he gets sth on top, don't see a big deal with this.

I'd definitely suggest to him to quit the deal, and offer him lower % of your own profits in perpetuity from cash games that go towards repaying the makeup, even if it is 10% (and I'd also try to negotiate slashing it due to his mismanagement, false promises etc. to like half etc. ) as you don't believe in his coaching methods.

As otherwise you'd just quit - he really has nothing to lose, and this is how e.g. UK companies recover debt, slash it, offer payment calendar as in Scotland where I lived you can't go to jail because of debt

We'll talk about getting coaching in-depth tonight by the way
I'd love to hear your two cents
Join us at 8pm CET in about an hour where we'll bring this topic up
https://forums.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?postid=2836880#post2836880
https://www.twitch.tv/pokerstrategydotcom

Originally posted by sc2zerker
Just my 2 cents, putting college aside for poker is really bad real life play....

Well this one is debatable I'd say. I haven't even though I moved from NL2 to NL50 within months, I chose the study/job route instead.
And I'm still battling at midstakes after coming back while a bunch of my peers from that time have ben playing the highest stakes online for ages.

I guess my entire span life EV of having multiple schools completed and a bunch of work experiences under my belt before I actually turned full-time poker pro is higher, but the "what if" question does pop up when I see guys Like Llinus who's the No1 NLHE player in the world online who quit in their first year of high quality university and never looked back

Originally posted by LemOn36

Originally posted by sc2zerker
Just my 2 cents, putting college aside for poker is really bad real life play....

Well this one is debatable I'd say. I haven't even though I moved from NL2 to NL50 within months, I chose the study/job route instead.
And I'm still battling at midstakes after coming back while a bunch of my peers from that time have ben playing the highest stakes online for ages.

I guess my entire span life EV of having multiple schools completed and a bunch of work experiences under my belt before I actually turned full-time poker pro is higher, but the "what if" question does pop up when I see guys Like Llinus who's the No1 NLHE player in the world online who quit in their first year of high quality university and never looked back

Even if you will succedd in poker and make great money more then likely will come a day when u will not play anymore and maybe want to work and without any school hard to get any decent work,,, 10 years ago my answer would not be same as today as its much harder to make a decent liveing at poker nowdays but yeah of course its also possible to do the school thing when you are 40 to catch up

Originally posted by la55i
From the things you have told us, I have understood that the guy has not handled this professionally. If he has lied to you and the coaching is totally not in the level that you thought it would be, I think those could be good reasons to get out of the deal. I don't know where you live but in my country if the other person hasn't been truthful and has used some kind of a deception to get you to enter the deal, the contract can be declared void. Also if you have agreed on coaching and you have not got that, then he has also violated your contract.

I think it is also wrong, at least morally, to have a makeup clause in your contract while the guy who staked you also coaches you and pushes you to play on higher limits. I believe that in a normal staking deal you know the limits you will be playing and you know the risk, but here it is a bit different. Imo your coach/backer should take at least some of the risk.

One option that comes to my mind is to quit poker. I think the makeup in staking deal is not exactly the same as debt. If we assume that your deal was legal and totally fine and you have to complete it, then you have to keep paying him back from your poker winnings. But I think he can't force you to play and he can't force you to pay from your own money. So if you would just quit you don't owe him.

But yea it might be a good idea to hear his view on this situation also. Maybe we can then help you solve this

Yes I was lied about his resultas, and definetely about his coaching abilities, cause I started to ask around about other people in group and I found out that I am not the only one who is stuck and in this situation. My plan is to talk to some mroe guys from the group or who were in the group just to have cleared picture about his stable and his approach.

I live in Serbia, and when I was entering his group I was amazed by the numbers of money he was talking about. I was 20, i live in awful country and those number he was teling about are 10x average salary here in Serbia.

Yes I also think that staker definitely must have some risk and if after double time of agreement there arent any results its not only my mistake. Btw, he found himself in the blog, and sent me a message that i can write on any forum anything I like and that wont help me. He told me that I have to bring money back one way or another. He also told me that he has no intention to join this blog under excuse that we havent made deal on forum.

Anyway thanks again for your help, if you have something to add please do it, every information is important to me.

If the guy doesn't want to settle this, don't waste any more time with him.
If there is no real risk that he comes to your door with a baseball bat, I would just ignore him at Skype and forget about it. You can consider your agreement void because he didn't hold his end of the deal (didn't really coach you and guide you through the stakes as you agreed).

Originally posted by CptJokerFish

Originally posted by bromsey96
Then i found out that HE HAD AN EXTRA AFFILIATE THAT HE WAS TAKING ONLY FOR HIM, eventhoug the deal was 50 50 all the profits and all the rakeback. I was losing my money and energy and he was earning money secretly.

Yes, that is nothing uncommon. Some stabels have deals with poker sites so the stable sends you a link and you register your poker account with this link.
And if you produce x% rake then the stable will earn y% from your rake. So the stable will get this money from the poker site. There are some good affiliates out there where YOU get for example 40% of your produced rakeback. But your "coach" takes everything how it looks like.

Originally posted by bromsey96
I asked him to quit deal cause its not working he treathened me that he will go to my parents and ask for money i owe him. He repeated several times and try to scare me with words: Do you know gow much do you owe???

Does he have a copy of your ID-card? Or why does he know where you life? Ok, never mind thats not important. Let him go to your parents lol. I think they will understand what is going on.
I dont know you but maybe you have some mental weakness where the "coach" knows about. So he tries to put pressure on you to reach his goal. Maybe he is sure that he can force you to pay the lost money back. -----> 0% risk for him to lose any money.

I dont know how much rake you have already produced but lets make a quick calculation. So you have played 1 million hands from NL30-NL200. Lets say you have produced "only" 10.000$ rake im pretty sure that you have produced even much more rake.
Ok, now lets say he gets 35% of your rake (im would not be suprised if he would get even 45-50%): 10000 * 0,35 = 3500$ <-- That means that he would have get already 3500$ just for HIM. Ok, lets raise your rake: 15000 * 0,35 = 5250$ just for HIM. Maybe you can checkout how much rake you have produced.
But im sure that he will have made some money even with his money that you have lost.

Originally posted by bromsey96
Hey thanks for writing. We dont have signed contract just deal made talking. Yes, we had dead to play limits no results oriented, and I was playing limits i cant beat (microgaming nl50 at the begining), and then after i was dropped down because of 3 bad beats and loss without loking int omy game and analysing.
What would you do in my case?

The whole story sounds very shady to me. This "coach" must be a complete moron or a good scammer. So my advice to you is the following:
Put this guy on your skype ignorelist and never ever talk again with him. You are still in a very spot in my opinion because you havent made any contract on paper.
But even IF you would have made a paper contract I wouldnt be sure if this contract would be lawful.

You have waste so much time already (2 YEARS) with this guy so its time to stop. It´s also intersting that other people have made the same experience like you did. The shady part is that he was animating you all the time to play on high limits. I mean you said you have problems to win on NL25 and he said that you can beat NL50 ....
Just put him on ignore and dont think about his threats. As I said already it very likely that he has even got his money back from the affiliate deals.
You will find things like that also in the real world.

-> Take a weak person.
-> Seduce the person to make something dumb where you earn money.
-> Threat the person and say that you will tell anyone what this person is doing. So the person will keep doing dumb stuff just to get not disgraced by friends/family.
A very good example for this stuff is prostituten.

So until you have realized whats going on you have to stop. Maybe you will have to take some consecuences (in your case I even dont think that you will have to take any consecuences) but if you continue doing dumb stuff then you will be unhappy for your whole life. Its probably not easy in the beginning but after sometime you can look back and be happy about your decision: Then you can said if I would have continued then I would be still a very unhappy person and then you will realize that you have made the right decision.

Hey man, thank you very much for you detailed response. I think that u hit in center with this answer! I wouldnt like all this to come to my parents, but now with all those responds i can show them and explain them so they can realize i havent done anything wrong and that i dont owe any money, so they would tell him jsut to get out and dont come back anymore. But its also stupid from him that he is mentioning my parents, I am over 18 and i am bringing decisions and taking consequences for it.

And got admit, a really great comparation with prostitution As i said in my reply to la55i i was only 20, seduced by those numbers and stories and now here I am still stuck.
I am definetely going to change something and make some hard decisions and once again thank you for your writing it is really helping.
GL!