1.5$ Α8s BTN vs MP Limper / BB min 3bet

well you have FD ott so nothing else you can do there so shallow. WP imo

Question for all: if turn went Q of spades, what should hero´s play be? I´m afraid fold is the best.

if the 3better is tight you can let go pre. If he is loose I tend to shove flop because you are committed anyway. The problem here is that this is a good flop for his range much better than yours. He can have all the nutty hands whereas you dont because you should have shoved them pre.

I agree with maniac here. Shoving flop is probably best. If the flop is less wet or the opponent more aggro, calling is good.

Originally posted by maniac
if the 3better is tight you can let go pre.

Do u know how many times do we have to win in order to have profitable call t100 IP ? Even against top 4% excluding implied odds?... I bet we have 100% profitable call pre.

Originally posted by maniac
If he is loose I tend to shove flop because you are committed anyway.

If you call flop, you got 67% pot behind ott, you really think you can´t fold there? Especially when you point out how much is his range better on such a board than our?

Originally posted by DaMaryJoanna
I agree with maniac here. Shoving flop is probably best. If the flop is less wet or the opponent more aggro, calling is good.

Maniac claimed shoving is needed because we are commited otherwise. I guess you don´t agree with that reason when you call versus agressive opponent... Villain is 47/12 (17) we only know he does not know what he is doing, he is not necessarily aggro yet his min3bet range is most likely tight - so, if I can ask, tell me why´d you want to raise him otf rather than aggro opponent?

Also, are you inclined towards shoving on this much wet board because of fear from folding better hand on certain turns or is there other reason?

Regarding not shoving flop. I didn't shove to keep his range wide like Kx ott even on bad cards i am not folding.

no with an spr of 1 or less most of the time folding is a bad idea.

to know how many times you need to win without implieds is easy just look ar your pot odds. Dont forget to factor in ICM a little bit.

Originally posted by Kriegphilosopher
Maniac claimed shoving is needed because we are commited otherwise. I guess you don´t agree with that reason when you call versus agressive opponent... Villain is 47/12 (17) we only know he does not know what he is doing, he is not necessarily aggro yet his min3bet range is most likely tight - so, if I can ask, tell me why´d you want to raise him otf rather than aggro opponent?

Also, are you inclined towards shoving on this much wet board because of fear from folding better hand on certain turns or is there other reason?

Originally posted by noulispa
Regarding not shoving flop. I didn't shove to keep his range wide like Kx ott even on bad cards i am not folding.

If we agree that we have to stack off on this flop the question becomes how we gonna do it. I think raising flop is certainly best against a passive/fishy opponent, because he will be calling a lot of Kx, FD's and arguably even his gutshots + QQ-TT. If we just call turn I am afraid that he can get away from draws which didn't materialize or K'x if the turn is scary. An aggressive opponent might fire a gut shot/flush draw or TT on the turn and we can get him to bluff it off with more hands. The presumed fishy calling station in this hand though will more likely stack of weak hands on the flop than barrel it off on the turn. That's why I like raising flop more than flatting, given we have decided to get it in.

@DamaryJoanna , yes good point.

Originally posted by maniac
no with an spr of 1 or less most of the time folding is a bad idea.

to know how many times you need to win without implieds is easy just look ar your pot odds. Dont forget to factor in ICM a little bit.

yeah you are right, but why then do you think riase/fold preflop is good idea when villain is tight, when we call t100 into pot t529?

If I´m correct we need to win less than once in 5 of these spots.

And against tightest range like JJ+AK we have much more than 20% equity, so I think we should never be folding