RIP

Online Poker is certainly not dead. However the difficulty of the game is certainly increasing.
But if you study hard and work hard. It is possible to stay ahead of the curve and make profit.

Thanks for your reply. Just to be clear I did make some profit after a 10K hands sample. So I'm not in doubt it is still possible to gain some profit. However that was on the lowest stakes available and the level of play amazes me. These supposed to be the softest games out there yet not many mistakes where made by anybody. Combinded with some other factors as stated above this really made me wonder.

Originally posted by FriskyArt
So am I missing something? Any further thoughts? People still make a decent profit perhaps thanks to volume and rakeback? Anyway thanks for reading my post, this needed to get off my chest. Hope to get some reactions.

Good luck and have fun!

Table selection, and possibly room selection might have been factors.

If you're playing hold'em, then yes, there are a lot of players trying to play GTO, balancing ranges and so on.
But there are lot of sites where there are still splashy players.

Cheers,
VS

Which site did you play 2nl on? Judging by your comments it must have been either Ipoker or Party Poker. Both sites have become reg infested and I do not recommend playing cash games at either site. But the MTTs at Party Poker are still soft, with low rake, small fields, good structure, and it's possible to put in a high volume due to their busy schedule. Ipoker offers similar advantages except for volume. So Party Poker wins hands down for MTTs.

Pokerstars is the place to go for cash games if you don't mind the four table cap. Low rake, rakeback and less regs due to the table cap. Unibet is also a good choice. Lowest rake online for 4nl.

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
Table selection, and possibly room selection might have been factors.

If you're playing hold'em, then yes, there are a lot of players trying to play GTO, balancing ranges and so on.
But there are lot of sites where there are still splashy players.

I have seen some fish but really not many and they don't last long and then dissapear forever. I like 6-max games and it really seems like 4 other players are regs and the 5th is half decent or loose fish if i'm lucky. So more often then not we don't see a flop and everybody plays GTO until the fish arives then it's battle, the fish gets broke and then theres again 20 minutes of no action unless 2 players get QQ or better. It's like a waiting game and if no fish comes well it happened that after 1 hour of play I just finish with my starting chips. Sounds familiar or is it me?

Originally posted by arthurbentley
Which site did you play 2nl on? Judging by your comments it must have been either Ipoker or Party Poker. Both sites have become reg infested and I do not recommend playing cash games at either site. But the MTTs at Party Poker are still soft, with low rake, small fields, good structure, and it's possible to put in a high volume due to their busy schedule. Ipoker offers similar advantages except for volume. So Party Poker wins hands down for MTTs.

Pokerstars is the place to go for cash games if you don't mind the four table cap. Low rake, rakeback and less regs due to the table cap. Unibet is also a good choice. Lowest rake online for 4nl.

By the laws of my country unfortunately I'm restricted to play on many rooms but I am allowed on Pstars and Unibet which I both like. Stars because it's a large player pool and good software, Unibet because of no HUD and low rake like you mentioned. But on Unibet theres really not many players online at any given moment. At the lowest stakes you can be happy with just 100 people playing at rush hour. Which in reality are probably only like 20 regs 4-tabling and then then a fish here and there.

You could argue I'm not good enough of a player but to me the game just feels dead. And it's not even about me really. I'm pointing out to the fact that the players don't have much of an edge anymore and the skill level is so close there are no more real winners. It has become a break even game with the only exception to that factor is lady luck.

I mean seriously, the last 10 times I got dealt AA I got 8 folds, 1 C/F on the flop when villain got pp and 1 time I got allin pre and lost to KK. I ended my one hour session with roughly the losses I got from that one hand. Sure bad luck, variance, etc but really this is not about 10 hands. I played over 10k hands recently and sure made some tiny profit but it's really not much become the most boring poker game ever. Or is 6bb/100 really decent these days at the micro's?

Where are the fish these days? Because if they are so scarce at the lowest micro's it sure doesn't get any better at higher stakes I assume. I hope I'm wrong about this but it's like all the fish have either gone broke or learned to play proper so they no longer throw away their stacks. Resulting in these zombie grinds taking the blinds and wait untill you hit AA with some holding KK or similar situations.

Fishes like variance, where they can have god runs and make 10x their investment -> Tournaments, Spin n Go, Omaha.
And if you wonder what a truely soft game might look like, spectate a non-holdem tournament or sit n go. Some players in those don't even know the rules of the game they are playing, thinking it's another game aaaaaaand... they are even playing the wrong game really bad. I'm not exaggerating at all.

So I put in quite a lot more time at the tables, in the back of my mind the reply's I got here on this thread. I managed to maintain tiny profits but after so many hours played the same thing keeps happening over and over again. All players I face are the same regular tight ass nits at the tables playing for pots no bigger then 3x BB's until someone hits a monster and usualy still gets zero action anyways. Only when we are really very lucky, one less skilled player arrives at the table and usually doens't takes more then 2 rounds of hands being dealt before going broke only never to be seen again. Or in some cases you see them go on crazy tilt mode going allin 10x times in a row and either bust or get a suck out and leave either way. This is literally what happened multiple times I kept notes and recorded my sessions. Sure I'm able to keep small edges and maintain just profitable by keep taking dead money (yay!) but it's really the most boring waste of time if you look at these games. It's frustrating and yes it tilts me when you play solid poker for an hour, in position with the better hand only to see everybody keeps folding to you and the one time you get called you know they hit their draw. Knowing you are beat, even you played everything correct in the hand to end the day with a break even session. Again. It gets a little better in the weekends when more recreational players arrive, but really I can't stop feeling the game is dead. It's just not profitable enough anymore. At least the 6-max cash games at the micro's, the game that I used to crush it just doesn't seem worth it anymore. I still keep playing because I'm on a mission to build a roll big enough to move up in stakes, hoping to find opportunities simultaneously keep improving my games because well.. I love the game on many levels, however as a source of income it's not a fraction of what it used to be. Maybe I'm missing something, maybe I'm not in the right places, perhaps I need to move to tournament games or other variants then the cash games. I never really played many tournaments mainly because cashing big in one of those is even more of a lottery where variance is even more of an issue.

Ah I still ended my session today with €1.62 profit thanks to playing great poker and got lucky enough when my opponent actually had a nice hand too when I hit the nuts. Really curious to move up in stakes or play at other rooms but I'm patiently building my bankroll for now. I did however won a few freeroll tournaments and now have some entry tickets into bigger tournaments so I'm excited to see how they go.

Originally posted by FriskyArt It's just not profitable enough anymore. At least the 6-max cash games at the micro's, the game that I used to crush it just doesn't seem worth it anymore.

You have still not said which site you play at?

9-handed tables at Pokerstars up to $100nl tables running. More players = less BB battles. More chances of loose players joining table. Regs prefer 6-max tables because of more hands per hour, and because it's easier to isolate the fish. So it stands to reason these tables are going to be more reg heavy than full ring. For that reason, if you want to avoid regs avoid playing 6-max on Pokerstars. Some sites only 6-max tables run such as ipoker and Party. These games are as you described exactly. Move to Pokerstars if that is the case.

I don't play at pokerstars at the moment and I can't stop thinking it is at least partial because I play without a HUD. I need to learn how to proper set up and use my HUD because it has been a while since I played with it. I like the fact that nobody is using a HUD at Unibet. On the down site just like some other rooms they don't offer full ring tables. I think you are right about the softer games and defnitly less swings at the full ring tables but the games are very slow and with a 4-table cap it's a very slow boring grind. It takes forever to build a roll that way. At the 6-max tables it's regfest but I think all poker rooms are the same in that way. I'm not sure what is the fastest way to build my bankroll but I have spent most time and practice in the 6-max games so they remain my choice of preference. But the edge is really small and the games are extremely nitty. But I still believe we all can agree that not much money is out there anymore the way things are these days. If you count the amount of hours spent and with high electricity bills these days you can be a winning player at the micro's and still lose money. Perhaps if I'm able to win a serious tournament some day I will change my mind, but let's be realistic here Hey it's still poker and it's still a fun and fascinating game to play!

Originally posted by FriskyArt
At the 6-max tables it's regfest but I think all poker rooms are the same in that way.

From what you said be I guess you play NL4 on Unibet, which is the softest pool with the fewest rake taken. It is easy to make 10+ bb/100 even on 6 tables. Is it regfest? Not at all. Literally no need for table selection, almost every table has a fish. The same is true for NL10 un Unibet. (Also the regs are weak as hell...)

Originally posted by FriskyArt
But I still believe we all can agree that not much money is out there anymore the way things are these days

No, we can't agree on that one. Is it harder to make money than it was 4-5 years ago? It is. Is is still easy to make money on micros? Yes, it is.

To answer your question: you are at the best place to build a bankroll on Unibet NL4 and NL10. As you said you crushed these stakes before, so I guess you know the basics and you need only a few hours of study to be a crusher again.

Thanks for your reply's, I cetainly appreciate them Today I had a nice session with great focus and was euphoric to notice some real fishes at the tables. The difference couldn't be greater then 2 weeks ago! After some studying and deeper analysing of my games I am starting to realize that I might have been both a little more rusty then I wanted to admit combined with unfortunate table selection (which isn't really an option at Unibet) There are definitly an increasing amount of realy good regs at the tables even at these micro's which was and still is both shocking and frustrating to me and the reason why I started this thread. (I also started it because I couldn't stop thinking I'm the only person who thinks about things that way) However a much needed confidence boost I got today where I start to notice more fish at the tables realising they're not completely extinct just yet. Maybe you are right and I need a little bit more studying to get back on track and perhaps I might crush the micro's again.