N4 AJ

Pot is multiway and the board is wet. Calling will give better odds for draws to continue and it is possible that BTN is holding AQ or AK. If you call OTT you would basically have to x/f every river card imo. Any diamond or club is terrible, you don't know if BTN has you beat. I would raise this OTF.

Squeez or fold pre, calling's the worst option

Originally posted by Berezovaya
Squeez or fold pre, calling's the worst option

I kind of agree with this. Calling is not very bad imo but still the worst option here.

I am not super experienced, so this post is as much about me trying to learn.

Calling pre flop and playing the pot out of position would not be my favourite. i think 3 betting utg limper and btn raise would be my preference.
As played i think x/c on flop is ok, you have backdoor to club flush draw as well as top pair good kicker.
The turn removes back door clubs and now you are calling against button who bets into 2 players showing no sign of weakness. it might be overly tight but folding doesnt seem a bad option to me. You are putting a lot of chips into the pot for a single pair hand and limited options to improve - for this level of action i would be expecting people to turn up with 2 pair or set.

Appreciate any thoughts people have on this.

Thanks

Totally agree with the right above. Our hand is not ok to be played oop mw. Squeeze or fold.
Fold turn.

Originally posted by la55i
Pot is multiway and the board is wet. Calling will give better odds for draws to continue and it is possible that BTN is holding AQ or AK. If you call OTT you would basically have to x/f every river card imo. Any diamond or club is terrible, you don't know if BTN has you beat. I would raise this OTF.

What is the purpose of our raise otf?

Preflop is a raise or a fold. I'd personally fold since the chance of taking it down right away is ridiculously small.

Flop is a fold. To see this clearly, consider your position. It is the worst absolute position. It is the worst relative position. Then consider the other players ranges. Do they like this flop? How does TP with practically no kicker fair against these ranges? Note that the button bet. I don't think he is kidding around with AT (the only value hand that you beat) often enough. And you don't close the action (because of the relative position). There is no way in hell you can win a big pot unimproved, and nothing really improves your hand to a monster.

Turn is a no-brainer immediate fold, no reason to waste half a stack on the first call.

Re raise before the flop or fold.

Originally posted by la55i

Originally posted by Berezovaya
Squeez or fold pre, calling's the worst option

I kind of agree with this. Calling is not very bad imo but still the worst option here.

Tbh. calling is probably pretty bad. Its probably pretty close between raising and folding, but considering people seem to fold too much facing 3b at these stakes I would prefer 3 betting.

Originally posted by nitrol

Originally posted by la55i
Pot is multiway and the board is wet. Calling will give better odds for draws to continue and it is possible that BTN is holding AQ or AK. If you call OTT you would basically have to x/f every river card imo. Any diamond or club is terrible, you don't know if BTN has you beat. I would raise this OTF.

What is the purpose of our raise otf?

To make draws fold and also for information. I know that info raises are not good. I think calling multiway on this board is not very good but I wouldn't like to fold. Then again YohanN7's argument about folding OTF looks pretty good.

Man there is no such thing as raising for info. It's called burning money for info.

Originally posted by ovatsuG21
Man there is no such thing as raising for info. It's called burning money for info.

I know. Getting info was a secondary thing here. I think we can not play this MW, OOP and without initiative. If raising is out of question, this should be folded otf.

Originally posted by la55i

Originally posted by nitrol

Originally posted by la55i
Pot is multiway and the board is wet. Calling will give better odds for draws to continue and it is possible that BTN is holding AQ or AK. If you call OTT you would basically have to x/f every river card imo. Any diamond or club is terrible, you don't know if BTN has you beat. I would raise this OTF.

What is the purpose of our raise otf?

To make draws fold and also for information. I know that info raises are not good. I think calling multiway on this board is not very good but I wouldn't like to fold. Then again YohanN7's argument about folding OTF looks pretty good.

Raise for information is expensive and meaningless. We do not want weaker hands to fold and get called only by hands that crush us.

Originally posted by la55i

Originally posted by ovatsuG21
Man there is no such thing as raising for info. It's called burning money for info.

I know. Getting info was a secondary thing here. I think we can not play this MW, OOP and without initiative. If raising is out of question, this should be folded otf.

I think that folding on flop makes you weak and exploitable. Why do we stay in the hand preflop if we are folding tp? We can call flop imo but fold vs further action.

nitrol nailed it.

If you call preflop you have to call OTF with toppair midkicker and BD nut fd. It makes no sense calling with AJ to hit 2 pairs or trips.
Preflop you can either 3bet or fold. Btn is a reg he may be isoing light but UTG looks like a calling station and if he calls you will probably play a mwp big pot oop cause btn will have very good odds. Play in that spot requires some skills and if you don't have it i think the best play will be folding.

Originally posted by nitrol

Originally posted by la55i

Originally posted by ovatsuG21
Man there is no such thing as raising for info. It's called burning money for info.

I know. Getting info was a secondary thing here. I think we can not play this MW, OOP and without initiative. If raising is out of question, this should be folded otf.

I think that folding on flop makes you weak and exploitable. Why do we stay in the hand preflop if we are folding tp? We can call flop imo but fold vs further action.

Nobody can exploit anyone 4-ways. Calling pre is a mistake. Why compound it with further mistakes?

Yes, one main reason to fold on the flop is to avoid tricky spots. But, also, how often does it work out the way we want it?

Say we call on the flop. For this to succeed, you strongly prefer UTG and CO to fold (given 4:1 or better). Their ranges are intact, they merely yielded to the preflop aggressor. On the turn, the remaining of UTG and CO needs to check. The button needs to cooperate and check. River: Same thing. Does the immediate pot odds justify a call? In other words, will the rest of the table suddenly shut down totally often enough with so much already invested?

If you tweak the numbers in an ad hoc fashion (means adjust numbers so that they fit the desired conclusion), then you might say "Yes, so call" here. Then comes the next problem. Are we good enough players to not give any more action when we absolutely shouldn't?

That was all about the flop, but it can be recycled for preflop as well. You should definitely not be too interested to invest 20% or so of effective stacks in order to steal the few bb's (9) in the middle even if it had positive expectation in isolation. Most people will just fuck up postflop when called, losing X bb where X >> 9.

Multiway isn't the same as heads-up. Bluffing and exploitative plays much go out the window.

Yohan, I totally agree that preflop play sucks, but we cannot fold tp+bdfd to nuts on the very flop.

3bet postflop or fold becouse your hand plays very poor oop.