Natural 8 supersusers

Hi cantunho,

I believe that is just standard variance. How many hands have you played? You can run bad for tens of thousands of hands and still it is normal.

In the topic of this thread you are talking about superusers. That would mean someone can see your hole cards, but what you are describing sounds more like site being "rigged". I haven't ever heard of any conspiracy theory about "superusers" that could decide what cards are going to come to the board and that way suck you out.

If the random number generator would be rigged at Natural8, it would be rigged in whole GG network. And I simply do not believe that. I have never believed that any of the poker rooms have been ever rigged. What would be their incentive to do so? The room is making money only from the rake you pay, it wouldn't make any sense rig the rng .

And yeah, I'm winning on GG network myself

what games are you playing? i am a a highstakes pro and i never saw so many awkard hands and plays like on this site! it really looks like they can see the cards i really hope this is just variance. i played 10k hands on 1k+. do you play on natural 8 ? how mnay hands do you have ?

No I'm not playing on Natural8. But the player pool is the same at every poker room that belongs to GG network?
I have just started playing there and so far I have played about 4k hands at NL10.

But I guess as a high stakes grinder you should already know that you need to play 10 times that much hands and even more before you can even start thinking that something might be wrong?:f_biggrin:

Hi cantunho,

Did you know that, in order to get to know your true all-in EV on Natural8 / the GG network, you need to look it up in Pokercraft (press the button at the bottom right of the lobby while logged in) and subtract the rake that you paid (a roughly estimated amount of it) from the EV shown in the graph (for some reason, Pokercraft fails to subtract the rake from won pots and thus you might have got an impression that your winnings as per the cashier are chronically below the misrepresented EV)?

LOL. Maybe as an NL10 moderator, you should give more credit to high stakes pros not being the random guy who shouts OMG RIGGED.

Poker sites have no superusers (cough cough... Ultimate Bet, Tigergaming,). This stuff is well known. Natural8 wouldn't surprise me a bit. It's a risk-reward to play on those sites. Not saying nobody shouldn't play there, but recommending this to your average player without warning is sleazy, to say the least.
Of course, maybe user runs like shit or maybe his own computer is infected...

What's the incentive for superusers? If you can't figure out this one... or figure out that maybe the owner does not even know about the user/doesn't care...

What's the incentive to push this site on users... that's the more interesting question. ;). That's just as easy to answer since profits for the affiliate are 200%+ compared to normal sites.

Raskolnikov, you have some good points, but anyway, the most proper forum for such objective investigations is TwoPlusTwo that has less commercial bias.

i never had suspicious for any poker site ( i play at pokerstars , wpn and tigergaming) but this natural 8 is kinda suspicous thats why i would like to hear from you

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
What's the incentive for superusers? If you can't figure out this one...

Incentive for superusers is of course that they will make more money for themselves. But cantunho said that when he gets it in with a good hand, they decline running it three times and he gets sucked out on the first board. Superusers wouldn't get it in with a hand that is behind? Or have you heard of guys who can control the board runout? So if he loses constantly because of bad runout, it is the rng that is rigged. And I don't believe for a second that whole GG network would be rigged.

Originally posted by la55i

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
What's the incentive for superusers? If you can't figure out this one...

Incentive for superusers is of course that they will make more money for themselves. But cantunho said that when he gets it in with a good hand, they decline running it three times and he gets sucked out on the first board. Superusers wouldn't get it in with a hand that is behind? Or have you heard of guys who can control the board run out? So if he loses constantly because of bad runout, it is the rng that is rigged. And I don't believe for a second that whole GG network would be rigged.

I agree with you that it's more than unlikely that the whole GG network is rigged, at least not on purpose. I don't know how exploits would work for the technology behind the algorithm.

Running bad is the first thing that can be proven (if consistent over a huge sample), so i doubt that's the trick anyways. Any superuser with a little brain will let you win a few pots. In my active career, i have helped people save million(s) through chipdumping from busto sites.
The strategy was simple so the dummy poker site "security" people wouldn't get any proof:
If I have TT, another guy 99, we get it all-in preflop. If it's the other way around, we play 3-bet call and overcards will always explain check-downs or even the worse hand bluffing ;). Same principle postflop, no site in the world can detect this and I don't consider this extremely smart. Simple, but works.

Ok, superusers with a few brain cells can do the same thing. It takes a smart poker guy to detect this. But as experienced players we feel when something is wrong, or when we're not getting called enough with worse hands...at frequencies that are just beyond luck.
You still gotta be critical, perhaps accept a superior opponent, but iirc, Tigergaming superuser was "caught" by analyzing frequencies (i added some input, but didn't follow the whole thing...so take this not as a proven fact)

The sinister part about the Tigergaming superuser is that only smart poker players can detect it. Support or "game seucrity" guys or lower stakes players will not understand "weird inconsistent patterns".
These idiots only look for 38o all-ins when chip-dumping. They look for the "obvious obvious" stuff... this way they only catch the 80IQ cheaters.

Summary:
We shouldn't make early conclusions, but when a high stakes players makes a comment about a new asian network (asian networks are not known for "honesty"), this should be taken a bit more serious than OMG CONSPIRACY.

It looks extra bad when the people who say this have a huge financial interest in promoting sleazy sites without telling their customers that they are sold junk-bonds.
I have a lot of bad things to say about how pokerstrategy develops, but i never thought promoting junk rooms as the gold standard would be one of them.

I play on gg network (same as Natural8 8).
After 15 days ,they still haven't paid me from my cash out.they said they must first fix up à bug and blabla but no money.
About thé poker room, me and à another black member long term winner got the same experience on it.
As thé level there is very soft, in 3 days ,we won something like 20 buy in easily then (I assumed the software has flagged us as winner player ) the 4th day it became impossible to win . The best day,we finish éd break Evan.
After 10 days playing on it ,I have seen enough, I cashed out but im still waiting to get my money.i assume money is lost. My friend got thé exact same experience.

i am a seasoned poker player, i dont lose if the cards are legit but i can tell you gg poker and network is 100% rigged, the amount of bad beats river magic is unbelievable. even when you have sets to fh you can lose so often the odds are near impossible. they claimed they have a renowned company called bmm to check the integrity of their cards that they are 100% random, but in reality no one ever heard of this company. i heard of ecogra but never heard of bmm. a lot of poker players instantly loses when playing online because they are so obviously rigged, like making up dramatic hands and deploying bots and players that gets whatever hands they want to rip your money. poker stars america cardsroom bovada these are all actually rigged and its common for online sites to rig cards and gg poker is one of the worst indeed. there are as well players when they win they use various bs reasons to freeze your account preventing you from withdrawing. a lot of ppl thinks its not rigged because of the poker sites ads and ratings reviews they are paid to make, but i can tell you these are all fake, otherwise they pay fake people labeling them as cry babies or poker noob losers when someone saying they are rigged. STAY AWAY FROM GG POKER.

Hi nadnij,
Welcome to PokerStrategy.com!

Did you realize you replied to a 3-yr old thread?
Very few people are going to see your post since the thread is so old.

Even if they see it, very few people will take the time to read it, since it is the classic "wall of text".

Once they do start to read it, most will stop after the end of the first sentence, since on PokerStrategy.com we get so many "<site> is rigged" posts that most don't bother paying attention.

But now that you're here, why not see if there is a poker room you like better?

All the best,
VS

It is rigged. Have same feeling there! AA looses to some random 46 of Calls, and many other insane CALLS, and insane loses. And only after deposit, u can get few Wins. Days after, you can play like god, and u will loose anyway.

I have moved the thread to the Natural8 board. There fits it better.

I never played there, but I have the feeling on every poker room are players that thinking a poker room is rigged.

Cheers,
SDK1987

So just do a liitle expriment, try it! And bring ur own opinion and thoughts here just try play 1st day after deposit, and try play few days later. Something is weird there whit card shuffling. And i have that strange feeling inside about that, something is wrong there for sure. I saw so many insane calls, whit such a retardet hands, that imposible to find call there, and explain in any mathematical way, and they will Win. And u will loose. I dont say that u loose every hand, i mean there is something unnatural hapening, like in tv show Supernatural, where Dean Winchester and Sam Winchester meet demons.

Just for tought: Spin n Gold / 3 max / Prize x5 (rare) / Starging blinds 25 bb / We are heads up / I have lead (65% chips), Pushing AJ / Getting call ALL in from 35 Os / - collects street. Ok, now try explain me, how any of player in the world, will be able to find call in this situation?

And a lot of other hands, where u are ahead on FLOP, and u get call ALL in, and people collect runer street, or just turn and river gives trips for oponent.
Im not crying here, i just want here toughts from other players, and maybe they will share they own experience there.

Next Question is: Online Members! They show so big numbers online, and sometimes u cant even start a game or u need to wait, to start it.
Try to compare online numbers of pokerstars, and gg network.

p.s.:

if u are new there: https://honeymoonmissions.com/list-of-honeymoon-missions/

This is list of honeymoon missions.

I know I'm two year later replying to this thread. But I got to say, I share the same sentiment as you or a lot of players that played on GG.

I have not played on N8 but I played on GG for 1-2 weeks and there is no way it is not rigged. I play recreationally on sites that doesn't involve real money as well as live tournaments in my country. I have good results from both. And never in my time of playing poker, i encountered anything like GG poker.

First, bad beats. It is not about the insane bad beats, it is about the frequency of insane bad beats. As mentioned, I play live so no rigging there and you will see insane coolers and miracle rivers here and there, it is part of the game. But the difference is, you are not even surprised on GG. It happens so frequently that it is mathematically impossible if it is not rigged. Even if you have 90%+ odds on the flop or turn, you will almost for sure lose on the river. Whether is running cards for flush, straight, 2 outers, 1 outer. If you go in big on the flop or preflop (AKA if you have a strong hand, you will almost always lose).

Second, the algorithm is almost like designed to deal only action flops to incentivize you to put chips in. So rarely the board missed players involved, there is always action to hook you in just for you to bleed on the river.

Third, you almost are guaranteed to win when you first deposit money in. You will get good runs like you can't lose at showdown, or people will fold to you and you take the pot. But after 2 days, you will see that no matter how perfect you play or how much the odds are in your favor, the run out will have you lose and bleed. No matter what, you just can't win anymore. Then of course, you'll have to deposit again.

Last, unexplainable shove and all-in calls. Sure, when you play low stakes, there might be some players that doesn't care all that much and are willing to gamble on a flip. But how often do you actually see these kind of players when you're playing live, regardless of stakes. 3,4 off suits, 2,8 off suits calling all ins when they are not even short stack at frequency that you won't experience when you play live. Because regardless of stakes, humans are wired to protect what's theirs. Psychologically speaking, no one like to take the risk of losing if they don't have to. It's another story if you have 2 big blinds left and you decide to test your luck. But when you are 50 blinds deep at least, calling all ins with 2,8 off suit are just unexplainable. And of course, 2,8 wins even facing AAs or KKs.

My friend once played on GG, I believe it was a $200 buy in tournament, it not high stake but it's not so low either like $5 or $10 either. Pre flop all in with at least 100 BB (early in the tournament) with KKs, J10 of spades called the all in. Can you guess the outcome? My friend hits quads and lost to a royal flush on the river. Quads vs Royal Flush. Have anyone ever seen that? I played 10s of thousands of hands and I had never had a royal flush but within the first week on GG, I got my first royal flush. Because the algorithm is designed solely for high action flops and boards that you see straight, flush, trips, full house, quads at a high frequency, every other hands. I'm not even gonna go into my personal experience of rigged hands.

In my heart of heart, I try to convince myself, or to think with logic of why would such big site want to rig the algorithm for what gain? They want people to stay, not leave. They have such renowned players representing them, and is involved with WSOP, etc, etc. Looking like they have sterling reputation and endorsed by big names. But no matter how I try to think logically, the answer is always something is wrong with the site. It is just mathematically impossible. You can rig anything but not math. If the odds are in your favor of 90% + every time you are all in, and you still lose over 90% of the time in over 100 hands, etc. You know it is wrong.

Hi qiqi5277,
Welcome to PokerStrategy.com

One of the general principles of online poker is "If you don't trust the site, don't play there".

Originally posted by qiqi5277
My friend once played on GG, I believe it was a $200 buy in tournament, it not high stake but it's not so low either like $5 or $10 either. Pre flop all in with at least 100 BB (early in the tournament) with KKs, J10 of spades called the all in. Can you guess the outcome? My friend hits quads and lost to a royal flush on the river. Quads vs Royal Flush. Have anyone ever seen that? I played 10s of thousands of hands and I had never had a royal flush but within the first week on GG, I got my first royal flush. Because the algorithm is designed solely for high action flops and boards that you see straight, flush, trips, full house, quads at a high frequency, every other hands. I'm not even gonna go into my personal experience of rigged hands.

I have seen this exactly once. It was a live charity tournament. The dealers were all amateurs, so very little chance of rigging. If I remember correctly it was "just" a straight flush that beat the quad Aces.

I have also lost with a straight flush to a better straight flush — I had 7♥: on the board was 8♥:9♥:T♥:J♥: opponent held Q♥: This was on PokerStars so no bad beat jackpot.

Finally you need to be very familiar with https://www.primedope.com/poker-variance-calculator/ there you will see several simulations all for a player with a theoretical 10BB/100 win rate. Compare the best and worst lines.

All the best,
VS