Originally posted by mbml
are we seriously supposed to defend that wide? I know pot odds are good,but OP said 45% opening range. Always felt like there's no reason to defend wider than the BTN opening range. Don't see how you can play it profitably when his range is just that much stronger.
This is assuming vs at least 50% minraises, vs somebody who opens less we obv defend less.
Originally posted by imfromsweden007
Yeah internet, you're probably right regarding K3o and similar, it was originally in but I guess I was a bit hasty in my downscaling. But yah, probably almost certainly better to call T2s and K3o than 32s I guess. I do think we should call or 3bet all of them though, including 42s, 52s etc.
You seriously think 3betting 42s/52s is more +EV than folding? I mean everyone and their mothers have got better at defending vs 3bets, calling more/4betting more. I can't see how it can be profitable to be in a 3bet pot with those. So yea even against a 70% btn open I don't see how it can be profitable. Have you done any math on it? Or care to explain what I'm missing please. I agree we should be defending quite wide and most don't but not quite that wide imo.
As part of a balanced 3betting range I do think we can include 32s/42s/52s yes. I don't think we should 3bet all of those every time but as part of a balanced overall strategy, yeah. I also think we can flat them profitably, 32s is not going to be a power house (obviously), but I think it's strong enough to show a better winrate compared to folding, especially versus someone who opens 70% on the button.
Edit: It also depends on who we're playing against, if we're playing vs somebody who calls most 3bets then obv we want high card value since he flats hands that will be dominated postflop. If we instead play versus somebody who calls a smaller % of hands, but instead folds more or 4bets more, then we're going to be more inclined to call broadway kind of hands and instead 3bet hands such as 52s/K2o and similar hands that don't have a ton of value by flatting. So depending on who we're up against we're going to construct our 3bet range differently (just as we're constructing our defending range differently depending on how much they open etc), but versus a lot of guys it's not unreasonable to put the low suited hands as one of our 3betting hands.
Originally posted by imfromsweden007
As part of a balanced 3betting range I do think we can include 32s/42s/52s yes. I don't think we should 3bet all of those every time but as part of a balanced overall strategy, yeah. I also think we can flat them profitably, 32s is not going to be a power house (obviously), but I think it's strong enough to show a better winrate compared to folding, especially versus someone who opens 70% on the button.Edit: It also depends on who we're playing against, if we're playing vs somebody who calls most 3bets then obv we want high card value since he flats hands that will be dominated postflop. If we instead play versus somebody who calls a smaller % of hands, but instead folds more or 4bets more, then we're going to be more inclined to call broadway kind of hands and instead 3bet hands such as 52s/K2o and similar hands that don't have a ton of value by flatting. So depending on who we're up against we're going to construct our 3bet range differently (just as we're constructing our defending range differently depending on how much they open etc), but versus a lot of guys it's not unreasonable to put the low suited hands as one of our 3betting hands.
You could be right, but I think unless your name is sauce, most regs will make mistakes postflop that will cost them more than the small edge they gain preflop by defending. #nititupftw. Honestly I just don't want my 3bet frequency any higher and get into more tough spots when I suck as it is. And like I said still not convinced that we get enough equity from those hands, just think we have to bluff with them enough to show profit and not everyone a bluffing maniac like you ♦
You are misstaken if you think most, or even many of these hands will be 3bet. Our 3bet % will probably stay very close to the 3bet % you already have. The difference is that we call a lot more. That's what we're exploiting here, when people are minraising we only need to win the pot 22% of the time, which is why we can call so light. The very attractive pot odds are ruinied if we decide to 3bet instead, so we counter minraises by calling a lot.
I definitely think we can make a profit even if we're not sauce, because we're not playing against guys of the same caliber as Sauce's opponents either. Most people are terrible in single raised pots, and they really need to play very good in order for us not to realize our 22%.
reverse implied odds are huge... this 22% you are talking about is almost not worth thinking about.
The idea is that I take the reader through my thought process...
Hands with Sauce #1: 6bet shit-flinging vs AARookie
Stakes: 40/80nl 6-Max. Game was 5-handed
Hero (SB): $33,739.5
(BB): $42,479
UTG: $19,498
CO: $47,508
BTN: $16,000
Pre-flop: 9c6c dealt to Hero (SB) ... UTG folds. MP folds. BTN raises to $178. I 3-bets to $720. Villain 4-bets to $1920. I 5-bet to $5127. Villain 6-bets to $9055. I called.......................... 
:f_confused: :f_confused: :f_confused: :f_confused:
Also after this:
Originally posted by pleno1
bro, not folding the 96!
this:
Originally posted by pharcyo
Games are not dead
and some other posts I won't quote, this is my favorite thread from now on. I will put it among my favorites, and manually check every to be shure that I don't miss anything.
Originally posted by pharcyo
reverse implied odds are huge... this 22% you are talking about is almost not worth thinking about.
Disagree on both parts.
Originally posted by pharcyo
reverse implied odds are huge... this 22% you are talking about is almost not worth thinking about.
are you aware of what this number represents ? the lower % the wider we can defend
Originally posted by doctorkgb
The idea is that I take the reader through my thought process...Hands with Sauce #1: 6bet shit-flinging vs AARookie
Stakes: 40/80nl 6-Max. Game was 5-handed
Hero (SB): $33,739.5
(BB): $42,479
UTG: $19,498
CO: $47,508
BTN: $16,000
Pre-flop: 9c6c dealt to Hero (SB) ... UTG folds. MP folds. BTN raises to $178. I 3-bets to $720. Villain 4-bets to $1920. I 5-bet to $5127. Villain 6-bets to $9055. I called..........................Originally posted by imfromsweden007
.....96 is a power house call.....Your welcome.
This thread only highlights how little I know lol, really enjoying the discussion!
Sure, but only have 100k hands or so (so basiclly insignificant sample, since it's then only like 10-15k hands from the BB), and I definitely make a lot mistakes postflop as well (just as everyone). But in the big blind my lossrate is -41bb/100, not sure what's average or whatnot, but I guess if you just fold every big blind it's going to be -100bb/100. So recouperating 60% of my big blind at least in 6 handed.
What would be more interesting to see would be to filter how you're doing when you're calling a minraise from the big blind without a big hand (ie you filter out all broadways, SCs, pairs etc), and compare that winrate to the winrate you would have had if you had just folded those hands instead (100bb/100). Unfortunally, since I only have 100k hands, that's going to be so few hands that it's not really worth looking into yet, but once I get some more hands I'll definitely run some analysis's there.
Edit: Just ran the filters anyway, filtered out everything that is normally considered OK to defend with, and so far I was actually up money with these hands. And yes I realize that's obviously not sustainable, and sample size is obv way too small, but still it's good to see.
filter to the weakest hands you typically cold call. if you are > -1bb/hand you are too tight.
(facing 1 raiser; position 1st raiser: BTN; hero position: BB; did cold call preflop = true; holecards {K7o, T8o, ... }) or similar filters
@pharcyo: pot odds are the basis of any decision. but agree that the 22% need to be adjusted like we would adjust combo in a flop calling range give texture/stack sizes etc.
Just dont really know how to. RIOs are deffo a v v v big consideration.
Will post my BB winraite - although only 100kish hands too.
@internet: this filter doesnt take into account the raise size right? cause id say a good 30% of my opponents are 2.5x/3x'ing their btn's.
Originally posted by lnternet
filter to the weakest hands you typically cold call. if you are > -1bb/hand you are too tight.(facing 1 raiser; position 1st raiser: BTN; hero position: BB; did cold call preflop = true; holecards {K7o, T8o, ... }) or similar filters
I did this for hands that are weaker than my "default" cold calling range
lol sample size (over 100k hands total but I rarely defend these holdings)
but still, looks like I can add way more hands into my default defending range..
edit: I filtered for all the weaker hands, and added filter for 4 players+ (have some HU hands)
I'm from Sweden, what is your VPIP/PFR in the BB? (In general, not just when BTN minraises as sample size will be worthless if you only have 100k hands)
Also VPIP/PFR/bb/100 from SB would be interesting too.
oh there actually is an option to filter BTN's raise size.
So here are my stats vs btn minr:
3bet 9%
call 40% ; prolly something like:
From SB i actually call 7% and 3bet 12%..
@Dozeer what kind of filter is that?? looks really good but couldnt find it...
Originally posted by pharcyo
I'm from Sweden, what is your VPIP/PFR in the BB? (In general, not just when BTN minraises as sample size will be worthless if you only have 100k hands)Also VPIP/PFR/bb/100 from SB would be interesting too.
I seem to be 22/9 filtered for 6handed in the BB. For small blind i'm 27/21 and I lose at -18bb/100.
