[SEMINAR TODAY!!] Oblioo - Constructing Flop Ranges

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Hi Dustin,

I have a question regarding A or K high rainbow boards and not connected.
Board is dry but villain is unlikely to barrel which are going against each other as far as raising is concerned.

So do we want to have a raising range at all? Basically 33 and 88 here. I would tend to flat those tbh especially vs an unknown. But then again raising them allow us to also bluff those boards more often.

Below is a hand I played today, villain is 33/20 after 40 hands

Poker Stars, $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (BTN): $200 (100 bb)
SB: $201 (100.5 bb)
BB: $324.30 (162.2 bb)
MP: $207 (103.5 bb)
CO: $217.42 (108.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 9 T
MP folds, CO raises to $6, Hero calls $6, 2 folds

Flop: ($15) K 3 8 (2 players)
CO bets $10, Hero raises to $30, CO folds

Results:

Thanks!

Great coaching, for me one of the best ever.

I've taken the first hand in my database:
UTG is a 21/15, opens from UTG (RFI from UTG=20%). There is a superfish on the bb, so I think I can flat more hands than the normal. My call-range can be a sort of this :

what do you think about?
Here comes the flop:

FLOP: Ts 6h 4h

Now, he cbets 2/3 pot. He folds 50% to raise cbet, and he cbets 78%, with only 27% on the turn (not so many hands, 700). I think I can have a good raising range:
value: 44,66,TT = 9 combos
bluffs: 87, 98, JT, QJ without FD, [12], AJ without backdoor FD [2], some A2s-A5s.

Is that right? Another hands I could add on the bluff range?

Another question. If villain doesn't fold to cbet-raise (assuming fold to cbet raise = 35-40%) I should eliminate the bluff range, or reduce the ratio bluffs: value from 2:1 to 1:2. Do you agree?
And what hands can I add for value? Th 9h, Jh Th, Ah Th, JJ? Should I do it?

Sorry for all these questions, I want to understand if I'm not too wrong

Can just simply click OP or my previous post, press play and watch the coaching.

TADAA

Originally posted by pleno1
Can just simply click OP or my previous post, press play and watch the coaching.

Not sure if that was for my post or Kate's but I attended the coachign and even rewatched it

However we haven't quite covered the type of boards I am describing so was wondering what Dustin was thinking about them.

Hey Oblio,

Very good video as expected, but I have few comments and some questions.

Obviously like you said this was just a video on how to come up with ranges but little bit of nit-picking from me, on the T23 monotone board if we have A2 and A3 in our range it's much better to have those in our range than the AQo/AJo imo cus they have more equity. I don't remember the other boards but I typically pick bottom pair as part of my bluff range often. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Now onto the questions:
So first of all, I think the preflop range is fairly solid, obv we flat some A2s-A5s when bbs are not aggro, fish in the blinds same for 22-44, some other weaker hands but I think overall is quite good.

How wide of a CO range are you using this range vs roughly? assuming bbs are not super aggro or super fishy just "normal" regs.

So this T23 rainbow board is actually quite the perfect example:
Obv pocket pairs are quite high variance but a lot of guys with large samples have 22-33 (losing a decent amount) 44 (losing but closer to b/e) 55 (where we get into profit territory)

Watching Sauce's video he said he doesn't flat small pps btn vs co, which I agree with and I rather be exploitable on this board in a sense that I can't raise as much on boards that contain 2-4 but will prob be making more.

I guess the question is do you think regs perceive you to have 22-55 in your button flatting range?

Any comments about the whole flatting or not flatting 22-44 are welcome.

Also back to monotone boards, do you think people are really cbetting quite that wide on them? Idk if I'm just playing bunch of weak pus regs but I honestly don't see that many regs going quite crazy on them.

Okay there is a lot to get to--I will try to answer everyone's questions but it may take me a few days to get through everything. For now,

Originally posted by Dublimax
Hi Dustin,

I have a question regarding A or K high rainbow boards and not connected.
Board is dry but villain is unlikely to barrel which are going against each other as far as raising is concerned.

So do we want to have a raising range at all? Basically 33 and 88 here. I would tend to flat those tbh especially vs an unknown. But then again raising them allow us to also bluff those boards more often.

Below is a hand I played today, villain is 33/20 after 40 hands

Poker Stars, $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (BTN): $200 (100 bb)
SB: $201 (100.5 bb)
BB: $324.30 (162.2 bb)
MP: $207 (103.5 bb)
CO: $217.42 (108.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 9 T
MP folds, CO raises to $6, Hero calls $6, 2 folds

Flop: ($15) K 3 8 (2 players)
CO bets $10, Hero raises to $30, CO folds

Results:

Spoiler

$35 pot ($1.58 rake)
Final Board: K 3 8
Hero mucked 9 T and won $33.42 ($17.42 net)
CO mucked and lost (-$16 net)

Thanks!

Max, good question! I am not positive whether or not it is best to have a raising range here--there are definitely arguments for both raising and flatting with sets and floats (hands we would otherwise be bluff-raising with). One problem with NOT having a raising range, is that we will be getting to the turn with too many floats that we won't be able to bluff-raise, because remember we can have less bluffs:value combos on the turn than on the flop, so we might win the pot less often with our air, and you might say we could double-float with these hands, but vs. someone reasonably aggressive, again we can't have too many bluffs for raising the river, and villain may just go into check-call mode with hands that he might otherwise fold by the river if we raise the flop and then bet turn, shove river. SO, personally I prefer to have a raising range, but again I am not 100% confident. What might be best on this kind of board is raising sets like 50% to 75% of the time so we can have some bluffs but also some reasonable floats.

I know that was perhaps a bit long-winded, but does that makes sense/answer your question? Obviously when we are raising, T9cc seems like a good hand to include as a bluff

also p.s. I just re-watched a few minutes and I'm not sure how much it bothers anyone else but I promise I will try to stop saying "um" so much in the future.

Originally posted by oblioo
Max, good question! I am not positive whether or not it is best to have a raising range here--there are definitely arguments for both raising and flatting with sets and floats (hands we would otherwise be bluff-raising with). One problem with NOT having a raising range, is that we will be getting to the turn with too many floats that we won't be able to bluff-raise, because remember we can have less bluffs:value combos on the turn than on the flop, so we might win the pot less often with our air, and you might say we could double-float with these hands, but vs. someone reasonably aggressive, again we can't have too many bluffs for raising the river, and villain may just go into check-call mode with hands that he might otherwise fold by the river if we raise the flop and then bet turn, shove river. SO, personally I prefer to have a raising range, but again I am not 100% confident. What might be best on this kind of board is raising sets like 50% to 75% of the time so we can have some bluffs but also some reasonable floats.

I know that was perhaps a bit long-winded, but does that makes sense/answer your question? Obviously when we are raising, T9cc seems like a good hand to include as a bluff

Yep everything makes sense.
And yes T9cc was an easy pick from our bluff range which could be T9s(3), QJs(3), 76s(3) and AJs(3) = 12 combos for 6 combos of value. Does this seem okay as a bluffing range?

Originally posted by serverm07
I don't remember the other boards but I typically pick bottom pair as part of my bluff range often. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Even though a bottom pair has more equity than the back door draws included in our bluffing range, it has less playability and doesn't improve to the nuts. While with the draws we have a clear plan OTT and river it is going to be difficult w bottom pair to continue our aggression.

Also we are pretty much relying only on fold equity with bottom pair (as a bottom pair is never good vs villain's continuing range) whereas we have some real equity vs villain's continuing range.

That might not be true on a monotone board though where in the example given we are raising with overcards w/o BDFD.

As for the other stuff you were asking I'll let oblioo answer

Originally posted by Dublimax

Originally posted by serverm07
I don't remember the other boards but I typically pick bottom pair as part of my bluff range often. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Even though a bottom pair has more equity than the back door draws included in our bluffing range, it has less playability and doesn't improve to the nuts. While with the draws we have a clear plan OTT and river it is going to be difficult w bottom pair to continue our aggression.

Also we are pretty much relying only on fold equity with bottom pair (as a bottom pair is never good vs villain's continuing range) whereas we have some real equity vs villain's continuing range.

That might not be true on a monotone board though where in the example given we are raising with overcards w/o BDFD.

As for the other stuff you were asking I'll let oblioo answer

Well when we have A2 vs AQo on T23, A2 can improve to two pair, trips, where as AQ can only improve to one pair. I typically want more equity when raising and this clearly has more equity. I don't really see how AQ has more playability here.

The other examples we don't ever have bottom pairs in our range but I haven't looked at the equity differences for different type of hands but my guess bottom pair with bdfd+str8 draw will always be one of the best in our bluff range, besides the gutshots since they can improve to the nuts or near nuts.

Originally posted by Dublimax
Yep everything makes sense.
And yes T9cc was an easy pick from our bluff range which could be T9s(3), QJs(3), 76s(3) and AJs(3) = 12 combos for 6 combos of value. Does this seem okay as a bluffing range?

Just real quick, I think the AJs combos are strong enough to float with; I'd prob rather be bluff-raising with the QTs combos instead. I'll get to the other questions tomorrow.

Is there a differnce between single-raised pots and 3bet-Pots? Or still two bluffs for one value-Raise?

Specific situation:

Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

Play hand

$0.25/$0.5 No-Limit Hold'em (4 handed)

Known players:
[tg]SB$60.25:///////;BB$82.61:///////;CO$57.84:///////;BU (Hero)$50.00:///////;[/tg]

Preflop: Hero is BU with XX
CO folds, Hero raises to $1.25, SB raises to $3.00, BB folds, Hero calls $1.75.

Flop: ($6.5) Q:c, J:d, 7:s (2 players)
SB bets $3.23, Hero ???.

What should be my value-raising-Range and what my bluffraising-Range?

Originally posted by serverm07

Originally posted by Dublimax

Originally posted by serverm07
I don't remember the other boards but I typically pick bottom pair as part of my bluff range often. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Even though a bottom pair has more equity than the back door draws included in our bluffing range, it has less playability and doesn't improve to the nuts. While with the draws we have a clear plan OTT and river it is going to be difficult w bottom pair to continue our aggression.

Also we are pretty much relying only on fold equity with bottom pair (as a bottom pair is never good vs villain's continuing range) whereas we have some real equity vs villain's continuing range.

That might not be true on a monotone board though where in the example given we are raising with overcards w/o BDFD.

As for the other stuff you were asking I'll let oblioo answer

Well when we have A2 vs AQo on T23, A2 can improve to two pair, trips, where as AQ can only improve to one pair. I typically want more equity when raising and this clearly has more equity. I don't really see how AQ has more playability here.

See bold part for the specific example of the monotone board.

Originally posted by serverm07
The other examples we don't ever have bottom pairs in our range but I haven't looked at the equity differences for different type of hands but my guess bottom pair with bdfd+str8 draw will always be one of the best in our bluff range, besides the gutshots since they can improve to the nuts or near nuts.

If we can have bottom pair+BDSD+BDFD then I guess it would be better but not having a pair should give us more draw outs in general.

Maybe you can post a hand discussed in the seminar with the raising range discussed and what you would change to it so we can have a concrete example to talk about?

Originally posted by Dublimax

Originally posted by serverm07

Originally posted by Dublimax

Originally posted by serverm07
I don't remember the other boards but I typically pick bottom pair as part of my bluff range often. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Even though a bottom pair has more equity than the back door draws included in our bluffing range, it has less playability and doesn't improve to the nuts. While with the draws we have a clear plan OTT and river it is going to be difficult w bottom pair to continue our aggression.

Also we are pretty much relying only on fold equity with bottom pair (as a bottom pair is never good vs villain's continuing range) whereas we have some real equity vs villain's continuing range.

That might not be true on a monotone board though where in the example given we are raising with overcards w/o BDFD.

As for the other stuff you were asking I'll let oblioo answer

Well when we have A2 vs AQo on T23, A2 can improve to two pair, trips, where as AQ can only improve to one pair. I typically want more equity when raising and this clearly has more equity. I don't really see how AQ has more playability here.

See bold part for the specific example of the monotone board.

Originally posted by serverm07
The other examples we don't ever have bottom pairs in our range but I haven't looked at the equity differences for different type of hands but my guess bottom pair with bdfd+str8 draw will always be one of the best in our bluff range, besides the gutshots since they can improve to the nuts or near nuts.

If we can have bottom pair+BDSD+BDFD then I guess it would be better but not having a pair should give us more draw outs in general.

Maybe you can post a hand discussed in the seminar with the raising range discussed and what you would change to it so we can have a concrete example to talk about?

Ok let's say board is Qd8sKs and we have A8dd.
bottom pair [x] bdsd [x] [bdfd]
The tricky part is, when turn is T or J, the question is whether to barrel or check, I think since we can have some perceived gutshots its fine to bet.

I mean if we are flatting A2s-A5s, then there will be boards where we can have more bottom pairs but we have to flat 22-55 and like I already mentioned I personally prefer having a tighter calling range vs most regs if they are not terrible.

Hello,

I'm consuming this seminar(I'm japanese and not good at English ♠_mad:)
and now I have a question.

What define made hand? for example, when board was Th9d3d, Isn't it value raise with QdJd?

Is there any reason not including QdJd?

Originally posted by serverm07
Ok let's say board is Qd8sKs and we have A8dd.
bottom pair [x] bdsd [x] [bdfd]
The tricky part is, when turn is T or J, the question is whether to barrel or check, I think since we can have some perceived gutshots its fine to bet.

I mean if we are flatting A2s-A5s, then there will be boards where we can have more bottom pairs but we have to flat 22-55 and like I already mentioned I personally prefer having a tighter calling range vs most regs if they are not terrible.

I think, on such board, this is fine to raise A8dd here. bc along with JTs, T9s, any xxdd we are having hard time finding the number of bluff combos if we raise KQ, K8s, 88 for value.

On a board a bit less connected like Q94ssd we probably want to raise more 87s, 67s than some bottom pair type of hands bc with bottom pair we can't have many additional draws.

As8s4d

On this board, I chose 56s and 76s first for bd straight draw.
However, there was no hand in this video.

Is reason that nuts bdfd is better than bdoesd?

and how should I play I c/r KdQd and called. and turn dire or no dire?

8s5c3h4s

I want to confirm this situation.

On this board, flop would c/c with both value and bluff.

Firstly,If it was CO vs BTN situation, what is my call(float) range?

I think PP,highcards suited connect with s,c,h

Next, what is my value range turn?

I think

value
88,55,33,67s( I doubt A2s 44 would float flop) (13 combo)

Next,because it is turn, bluff:value = 1:2 is fine?

If so,

KsQs,KsJs,KsTs,Ks9s,QsJs,,QsTs(6 combo)

I would call such as AsJs.

What do you think my thought?

I'm struggling to make what exact same range with you..

Th9d3d

I choose AdJx, Is it too strong to make this hand bluff?

Moreover, how much float range in this board?

Qc7h5c

I choose KcJx(not Jc) but how Ah2h over KcJx?

Ts2s3s

I choose A4s type gutshot and KQ with 1 spade.
Is it too strong?
I thought AQo or AKo was a bit weak.

I'm very glad to hear your response.