88 utg+1 min raise, sb flat, bb shoves, I flat, bb shove for all my stack

Easy iso raise when it gets back to you. This is like a dream scenario propably getting HU with BB with tons of dead money. And u obviously crush both BB and SB's ranges. SB should never have a hand here, after flatting the first time.

Originally posted by Lindberg789
SB should never have a hand here, after flatting the first time.

this is so not true

SB can easy have 99+/AQ+ range in this spot if he is competed

At Rebuz: U are saying that a competent player would take a hand that plays bad post flop 99-JJ and AQ+ and flat with when he have a perfect spot for 3bet jam and be called light?

look @bb stack

Hi all,

Reads on BB are inconsequential here as we're easily doing well enough vs his range to get it in. If SB is a good player he will be trapping very often preflop, if he is not then he will not be. Vs a good player I would fold pre, vs a bad one I would iso-shove. We need very specific reads to consider just calling preflop.

At Rebuz and Chenny: I still fail to see why a competent player would trap OOP when he has perfect resteal stack and will be called light by us.
In my world he should never be strong here and we have a easy iso shove as we obv crush BB range.

he will be traping cos bb has perfict stack to sqz and then he can come over the top with ton of dead money, as he did

You shouldnt have snap called his shove but isolated the opponent in my opinion.Thats the only right play in thats spot.

At Rebuz, Lets agree to disagree. I only see him trapping QQ+ if he ever is trapping, cuz with hands that play poorly postflop he should be jamming not risking bb fold or flat and be in a mess post flop.

Originally posted by Lindberg789
At Rebuz, Lets agree to disagree. I only see him trapping QQ+ if he ever is trapping, cuz with hands that play poorly postflop he should be jamming not risking bb fold or flat and be in a mess post flop.

the thing is, while he only has a couple combinations of trap hands, he will not be flatcalling preflop with his bad hands. so when he calls preflop it becomes always a trap. if he had his bad hands he would also go all-in (or fold). it takes a bit to wrap your head around, but that's IMO the situation here. just conditional probability situation.

Originally posted by chenny8888

Originally posted by Lindberg789
At Rebuz, Lets agree to disagree. I only see him trapping QQ+ if he ever is trapping, cuz with hands that play poorly postflop he should be jamming not risking bb fold or flat and be in a mess post flop.

the thing is, while he only has a couple combinations of trap hands, he will not be flatcalling preflop with his bad hands. so when he calls preflop it becomes always a trap. if he had his bad hands he would also go all-in (or fold). it takes a bit to wrap your head around, but that's IMO the situation here. just conditional probability situation.

So in ur opinion vs a random u assume that he is trapping? People are calling all kind of bad hands in these spots and are rdy to fold alot imo.

Originally posted by Lindberg789

Originally posted by chenny8888

Originally posted by Lindberg789
At Rebuz, Lets agree to disagree. I only see him trapping QQ+ if he ever is trapping, cuz with hands that play poorly postflop he should be jamming not risking bb fold or flat and be in a mess post flop.

the thing is, while he only has a couple combinations of trap hands, he will not be flatcalling preflop with his bad hands. so when he calls preflop it becomes always a trap. if he had his bad hands he would also go all-in (or fold). it takes a bit to wrap your head around, but that's IMO the situation here. just conditional probability situation.

So in ur opinion vs a random u assume that he is trapping? People are calling all kind of bad hands in these spots and are rdy to fold alot imo.

nah like i said, shove here vs an unknown on a soft limit/vs a bad player. fold here vs a good player/unknown on a tough limit

Great discussion here, I've learned something. As i said I would shove here in an instant if I didn't need the money, maybe even against a good player. Have seen many relatively bad hands play as the sb did and even on a higher limit all go for the throat, the win and that can't be accomplished without risks ofc. Both lindberg and chenny are right in what they are saying.

Cheers

Originally posted by TheRebuz
he will be traping cos bb has perfict stack to sqz and then he can come over the top with ton of dead money, as he did

BB should have at least 50k more to have a good squeese stack here. (if we assume some of his range are bluffhands)

Originally posted by ronekinky

Originally posted by TheRebuz
he will be traping cos bb has perfict stack to sqz (3BET AI LIGHTER WITH TO GET HU WITH OVERLAY) and then he can come over the top with ton of dead money, as he did

BB should have at least 50k more to have a good squeese stack here. (if we assume some of his range are bluffhands)

FMP

imo BB dont need to have a lot of FEQ (I assume from blind level that players are ITM) he just need good pot EQ so he can have + EV shove there with wide range
90%+ of time when he will get called (if he get called -> imo HERO and SB will both fold some % of time and he will pick up pot =~50% of his stack) he will be called from HERO or SB and he will get HU with at least ~33% EQ with dead money

IMO there are two questions here.

First you have to decide, is SB really good or is he just really bad.

If he is good and you follow Chenny/Rebuzz line (which I agree with) its an easy fold.

If he is bad, you still have to ask yourself whether you want to flip (most likely) for your tournament.

This is a decision obviously based on your call to BB shove.

I guess going back to the original line of whether you call or iso-raise, its a similar question.

If he is good you can very easily put him on trap, if he is bad, will your shove fold him out and if not, do you want to flip?

All in all its a really tough spot and personally, unless I know that SB is good reg, I probably isoshove after BB shove.

Either way, I think call is the worst choice of the decisions you have as it allows SB the opportunity to shove over, so it should be shove or fold.

if he's bad he's not gonna call it off often enough cause he will have a lot of weak hands in his initial preflop call range, seeing as how he's likely to be unaware of stacksize dynamics, how BB is playing his stacksize etc. If we call, I'm not worried about SB shoving over us as much as giving him a great price to get there with his Q9s type hands. I'd rather just isolate his dead money and get it in against BB. that's why if he is bad this is almost every single time a shove.