Worse hands than KK doesn't mean only QQ combos.
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Worse hands than KK doesn't mean only QQ combos.
Shoot it, what worse hands will a expected TAG aka REG player ship the river vs our strong preflop line + barreling line on the flop/turn.
interesting discussion guys 
this hand gets into a problem that i have with 4bets, that is "zomg wtfh are these unknowns calling my 4bets with being damn out of position" 
i'd play the same way, hate life and call the river, you know 4bet pot lalala etc but this is weird as a bluff line and it's questionable if he valueshoves QQ- himself
Reg? Really?
Originally posted by pcfmcc02
BTN played 21/18 after 60 hands, seemed like an average TAG player so far.
Sure looks like he has immense information on him.
You are considering folding the top of your range which means:
a) you are taking an exploitive play to exploit your opponent's range
b) the top of your range is too weak so you've made a mistake in range construction on previous streets.
Given the hands put in his range of TT, 88, 99, ATs he would need to have 3 combinations worse than KK here. If we put KK in his range we only need about 2.5 bluff combinations in his range to make this a close call. If he has 50% of his QQ/JJ here it's a snap call.
Sure looks like he has immense information on him.
It's anon. tables, how much else do you want to get?
a) you are taking an exploitive play to exploit your opponent's range
We clearly spoke about this above, you are never-ever going to exploit me here. That's so funny that people only know use the word "exploited" if they don't know what else to say. Clearly this is no spot where you get exploited.
b) the top of your range is too weak so you've made a mistake in range construction on previous streets.
Huh? What are you talking about? We clearly Bet/Bet/Betting for value vs his PP range but not expecting him to be shipping the river with JJ/QQ.
Given the hands put in his range of TT, 88, 99, ATs he would need to have 3 combinations worse than KK here. If we put KK in his range we only need about 2.5 bluff combinations in his range to make this a close call. If he has 50% of his QQ/JJ here it's a snap call.
Why would he ever shove the river with JJ/QQ, he has to be super-bad for that or just dumb enough to think that he is going to be ahead. Really, just go back to the hand and again take a look what actually happened, you are making look yourself even worse with those explanations. 
Since everyone makes perfectly rational decisions all the time, we should obviously see that 60 hands prove he will shove QQ or JJ less than 50% there AND will 100% NEVER shove anything worse than that for us to find 3 combinations of worse hands than KK.
Once you never have a bluffcatching hand on this river, you are making a mistake in range construction.
Once you never have a bluffcatching hand on this river, you are making a mistake in range construction.
Bluff-catching. In 4bet pot? I don't have anything to say anymore...
Well he can ship it as a bluff 
But people on those limits dosen't turn pairs into bluffs.
