$5 9man A4o interesting spot

Hello mavenell ,

When the short stack pushes, nothing is change. We can shove basically the same range if he had folded. We can shove profitable any ace here - A2+. We should over push our A4o.

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Best regards,
Antoan

So why is it a clear fold when plugged into any icm calculator. I think a majority of players think this is a standard shove and that ranges are the same as if it was folded to us. But I disagree because we never have fold eq and so does icmizer and nash. Hoping to create some good discussion with this hand.

Here is why I think it is a understandable fold.
1. there is a max of 44 chips folding eq
2. There is no piont playing the hand its worth nothing but added risk
or in short its not worth it, risking 2700 chips to win 44 chips in folds.

When we open shove, most of our profit comes from the blinds we win when everyone folds.

Since we have to go to showdown here, we need a stronger range to ensure we win more of the chips at showdown to compensate for the fact that we can't win many chips with pure feQ.

So A4o is a fold here, as you say, mavenell. But my first instinct was to push, so it takes some investigating to discover the "unintuitive" result

The really interesting part is that if we change his stack to 3 or 4 bb we can iso wider than 1bb because 600-800 actually makes a difference to our stack giving us better risk reward ratio.

Hello all,

Since we have to go to showdown here, we need a stronger range to ensure we win more of the chips at showdown to compensate for the fact that we can't win many chips with pure feQ.

Yes, interesting points guys. Should be this. In game I don't think I'm going to fold any ace but it really looks like it is small -EV to over push with the small aces. I would shove basically the same range with some exceptions of course because of the lack of fold equity but I would go too wide there and it would be -EV. Small but -EV. With no small overlay from antes we should make the mathematical fold.

The really interesting part is that if we change his stack to 3 or 4 bb we can iso wider than 1bb because 600-800 actually makes a difference to our stack giving us better risk reward ratio.

Villain is not sure money for us, we are colliding. This should not give us wider range for sure. It should be tighter. Not much tighter, but tighter for sure. We are risking more chips to win same proportion amount of chips. Also villain range should be tighter when he is with bigger stack than now.

Interesting situation!

Guys if you have any questions, do not hesitate to write in this thread by clicking the button or

Best regards,
Antoan

Quiet sure the small Aces were a clear fold. ATo/A8s or something close by memory. Yes I left small stack shoveing 80% in both situations when it seemed you should call wider when he has 3bbs, but this shows that you are risking the same amount of chips but you are winning more when he has a bigger stack so the risk reward is better. we have 2 stacks behind that we may also have to go to showdown with but in one intance we a risking getting called by them to win 456c and in the other we are risking the same chips to the players behind to win 900c. You have to go to showdown with small stack but you are still risking more to the stackes behind. Hope my line of thinking makes since

Hi,

When villain got very wide range even if he got a bit stack we can call wide profitable. If you put him same range we are going to be able to call much wider than if he is pushing Nash. Basically the range should not be wider because we have to collide with villain. If his money was dead, like he was afk then for sure our range is going to be much wider. There is small dependence between villain stack size and our calling range. As big villains stack gets tighter our range goes. By small but it goes tighter. Try different calculations when you put villain stack on 3-6-8-9 and etc blinds. and you will see how our range slightly decreases.
Villain always risk to win the dead money in the middle from the blinds. This is the overlay but for the other chips he have to collide and no matter if they are 300 or 1300 we got to fight for this chips because of lack of fold equity so against same range our range is going to decrease slightly with increasing of villains stack.
This my opinion if you are not agree you can reopen and other judge can take a look and make his analise about the situation .

Guys if you have any questions, do not hesitate to write in this thread by clicking the button or

Best regards,
Antoan