preflop play ? Villain play on the flop ?

Hi,

preflop is totally standard.

Postflop i would play it the same way. I don't mind pot raising it here as you are usually no bluff raising these boards and want to have max FE. Still raiisng smaller to like 120 should be fine, as it's still a "bluffy" size.

His play is optimistic indeed. But you don't 3bet that hand to fold on this board imho. Your range will be heavy on draws as well, so it's not the worst play in the world by him by far. He sucked out didn't he? haha ♦

Regards,

Skod

Why aren't we bluff raising these boards much? According to a quick PPT calculation, likely over 70% of the time villain will not have a straight, NFD, 987 or any two pair. It's hard for villain to fight against a raise out of position with a trashy hand, especially deep, so wouldn't it make sense to attack such a board with a wide-ish raising range? I guess this means villain should cbet a fairly low % here to avoid this headache, but at least with the description of villain being barrely and weak vs. IP raises, bluffraising a lot seems like a good game plan.

my thoughts:

i think in this spot because its a 3bpot and not a single raised pot, also i think its not a good idea in generell to pure bluffraise without some backdoor equity to go along when called

i think with a blocker in a single raised pot we could bluffraise and barrel a lot of turns but i dunno if its a good idea in a 3b pot when villian decides to bet here

Well, I think the fact that it's a 3bet pot is what makes villain's range so weak in the first place. People rarely 3bet low cards OOP when deep, right? The same board in a single raised pot is another story, no idea if raising is good there.

If we raise small, maybe something between $80-100, we only need around 50% fold equity. If villain is c-betting much of his air, I think he'll have a hard time continuing with the majority of his range even against a small sizing, especially if we hold a blocker to his continuing range like the bare Ac. Also, if we have some weak drawing hand like a BDFD or bare 87 or whatever, we'll get to realize our equity nicely if villain only flats flop. Making the best hand some % of the time lowers the required fold equity even further.

Well ♦ some good points tbh ♦

in some points i agree, in others i dont

"Well, I think the fact that it's a 3bet pot is what makes villain's range so weak in the first place."

it depends if u mean his overall range on this flop or his range to cb this flop. I agree that his range on this flop isn't so strong as on a QT6 Flop for example, especially when u hold the nfd. But in general when people bet here, they rarely do this as a pure bluff in a 3bpot. So in my opinion he has something to go along. Also he could have some fear that this flop could hit u as well.

Also i´m not so sure about ure 3b assumption (3betting lowcards). i think it depend on the players. Maybe stats are helpful here. I agree that people love to 3b more the highcard rundowns, or something like JJTT. But i´m also sure he could do this with a middle card rundown against ure co range for example something like 789Tss, 89TJss, 6789ds, 689Tds etc

"If villain is c-betting much of his air"

i really don't think this happen so often that u could profitable pure bluff raise here.

The same board in a single raised pot is another story, no idea if raising is good there.

in my experience people fight much more for 3b pots than for singleraised pots. so i really like a "bluffraise" with some bdfd or a blocker more in a singleraised pot

It's good to note that I have no idea how to play PLO ♦ Just throwing some thoughts out there to discuss. I agree that if villain does not cbet a lot of air, raising light loses a lot of appeal, and it might well be the case that they don't cbet this board a ton. OP's description of the villain (likes to bet and barrel, but doesn't put up too much of a fight OOP lightly) does sound like someone that might be exploitable here, though.

Hi,

those are good points. In general bluff raising is frowned upon in this spots, as you have a semibluff often enough.

It comes down to what your opponent thinks of you. For example if i had an agressive dynamic with my opponent i would stackoff with KK here in his spot with a gutshot or something. I'd assume villain is capable of raising draws.

But overall i just don't like purely bluff raising in these spots. It's really high variance. Vs an opponent i have reads on it's good, but also some people for example love to 3bet small rundowns so this board just crushes their range, and some people always see bluffs so they don't fold any pair here ♦

But your points stand. Making a bluff raise should be profitable in the long run. I just avoid these spots on wet boards often and search for my edge elswhere.

regards,

Skod

Originally posted by Skodljivec

His play is optimistic indeed. But you don't 3bet that hand to fold on this board imho.

raaaaaaah I missread the hand history, don't know why I was thinking that he got 689T (or hand like TP with 3 overcards + nut gs).
That's why i was a little shocked by his play, i've some histo/dynamic against him but that opponent is not a fish, lagspewtard etc...

indeed, with nut wrap 13/13 (+bdfd), his move in this spot (spr, board etc...) is not horrible (despite the FD on this flop)

... ok, in this specific case, against my hand in this board, 6789:wwwx and 689T:wwwx (or 679T) have a similar equity against my hand.

But against set, DP etc... 6789 nut wrap runs far better.
Have a good equity against good made hands (dry sets/DP), and run good against lots of hands except some combos that have FD (p+FD, ovp+FD etc...). and have not often less than 30-35% equity in this pot.

... well, can you confirm me that 3bet broke here with 689T / 679T (and 678T, TP w 3 overcards + nut oesd) would be spewy ?

Well it depends on the dynamics. In general yes, that's too light especially when deepish.

Regards,

Skod