asymetric ranges, how to defend with weaker range

Originally posted by serverm07

Originally posted by GingerKid

If the pot on avg increases by 2x, we actually only need to win the pot 10%.

Did you account that the pot increases by 2x on each street is happening because we put 1x in the pot, so winning only 10% of the pot at the final hand in average is going to be huge -EV?

I didn't claim pot always increases by 2x. I used an example. Depending on different sizings pre we get different odds pre and the pot might increase on avg different vs different villains but its your job to guesstimate what that is.

Hi, I understand that 2x you used just as example, but I wanted to say that it is not enough to win only 10% the pot at the final hand to make preflop call +EV. Because when we call flop, turn, it is our money, so if we win only 10% at the final hand, we lost a lot actually. So the only thing what is important is that if we at the final hand in average loose less than 1bb, it means that our blind defense was better than folding. So the pot odds would actually matter a lot if both players would check down, but since it is not the case, then we have to loose less than 1bb on average.

You also seem to give me no respect at all for the threads where I spent quite a bit of time answering your questions and posting which software to use what kind of things to keep in mind etc (bvb thread on low board for example). I

Yes I know that you spent a lot of effort on some threads, and I said in those threads that I was impressed with the quality of the answer and all details.
But thats just some threads, on most other threads you asnwered very shortly without explanations. I know that it sounds insulting, and I was aware of that, but I wanted to say honest what I think about it, so that hopefully things can improve, and hopefully you dont take it personally. Or maybe you like more when people dont say anything but they think something is wrong? Also my critics was not actually for you, but for pokerstrategy. As I said in my comment, i understand why you (and other coaches) dont provide detailed answers as you could and that I would do the same if I were you, but I complained actually on pokerstrategy that they for the rake they win from members dont provide quality content as they good.
IF they would pay coaches enough to answer ranges and detailed in threads, then coaches would be more motivated to do so.

Also now you can say who am I to criticise and tell opinion what is wrong, but I am a customer of pokerstrategy, and I think that in business world it is quite normal that customers tell what they like and what they dont like, what could be improved, and that the most companies are super happy to hear it, especially when customer is not happy.

The coaches get judged by the site on reviews and feedback and obviously it can be very frustrating and stressful when this happens. And it happens quite often to everyone, even internet. People are always unhappy with something instead of being appreciative and greatful.

I understand your point of view and problems you face as a coach. Working with many people (customers in your case) is on of the toughest among all jobs, since you have so many different people who will complaine, not many will be thankfull, and many will be insulting. Also it is worth noticing that I was in few of your detailed answers to my threads (not only to you but also other coaches) saying thanks a lot, it helped me a lot understanding the topic, but now after seeing only one thread where I compailned and was unhappy about answer, now this becomes the most important factor, and you decide not to comment any more on my threads? Can it be that you are not accepting negative critics from people, and quit cooperating once it is told to you? I would understand that you get insulted if I would say, you are horrible coach, stupid or something similar, but I just said that I am not happy with getting very short unexplained answers and I dont see what insults did you see there? I would like to hear really what do you find insulting in my comment, so that I can improve, to reformulate it more polite in the future.

Originally posted by GingerKid

The coaches get judged by the site on reviews and feedback and obviously it can be very frustrating and stressful when this happens. And it happens quite often to everyone, even internet. People are always unhappy with something instead of being appreciative and greatful.

I understand your point of view and problems you face as a coach. Working with many people (customers in your case) is on of the toughest among all jobs, since you have so many different people who will complaine, not many will be thankfull, and many will be insulting. Also it is worth noticing that I was in few of your detailed answers to my threads (not only to you but also other coaches) saying thanks a lot, it helped me a lot understanding the topic, but now after seeing only one thread where I compailned and was unhappy about answer, now this becomes the most important factor, and you decide not to comment any more on my threads? Can it be that you are not accepting negative critics from people, and quit cooperating once it is told to you? I would understand that you get insulted if I would say, you are horrible coach, stupid or something similar, but I just said that I am not happy with getting very short unexplained answers and I dont see what insults did you see there? I would like to hear really what do you find insulting in my comment, so that I can improve, to reformulate it more polite in the future.

I don't think you understand the big picture here at all. I think that because of the posts you made in this thread, so I will try and explain it to you. This goes back as far as the first training site cardrunners, the guys that started it made a ton of money, I don't know exact number but that number is minuscule compared to how much the guys the guys that taught people and the guys that would have figured out things on their own would have made. This holds true today, if every single person that is a winning poker pro just stopped teaching completely and just went about their business, all of the videos/articles/valuable information was completely deleted, the game would evolve at a much slower rate and you would see way less guys climbing the stakes. Think about even, bb defense for example, 2-3 years ago people were folding 70-80% from bb to bu 2x, yea the training sites made some money from releasing the info that you should be defending way more, but if only the guys that knew that kept it to themselves they could simply keep clicking raise and printing money, once again the money they made is very tiny compared to if the information essentially stayed a secret. As someone, that's learning about the game, be very grateful that the human nature is to share info and some guys were either nice or dumb enough to do that. As a poker pro, this is absolutely terrible for you because the game is constantly evolving. There is less and less money to be made relatively speaking.

Now on to the issue of why I think you and many others are ungrateful and entitled. The quote above and below along with few others in this thread clearly illustrate that to me. I'm speaking to you as someone who is also a student and has to learn from others.

So for most coaches, this forum lately looks like opportunity to commercialize their private coaching, by lets just answer the threads by giving them rough idea what they could learn from me if they pay me private coaching. Few days ago I posted around 20 hands, and coach serverm07 asnwered all of them, by answering something like:

Hi GingerKid,
3bet preflop.
call flop,
fold turn.
Thanks.

Even though, you have said thank you to me in some threads, think about as if a random person read this thread. Do you think they would think you are appreciative of me? I'm speaking about myself personally since it was directed at me. This can obviously be true for other coaches on this site. Also, you think this information is useless because you are treating it that way. Pretend you are a detector, think of this info as hints. Ask yourself how can I solve this puzzle? You seem to want the answers flat out handed to you and you just learn continue grinding and making money because you generate some rake for the site. You have to realize that although I'm ahead of you in the learning process, I'm not some high stakes sicko and I also have to learn more each and every day. I'm very thankful when people respond to my question at all, even if it as short as "NO". Do you 3bet this hand? "NO". Given I trust and respect the person, I use my detective skills to figure out why that person doesn't 3bet that hand. If they answer the question "why?" I'm doing backflips in my head.

And no, I don't think this has to do with me not being able to accept negative critics and quit cooperating. I'm not sure if you missed it the first time so I will repeat myself again. I have about 0 monetary gain here, I have spent (not sure exact #) easily over two hours responding to you. I might have made $20-$30 from all of that. That's way lower than my hourly, but you can't even compare that to my hourly alone because think back to the big picture, now you have some new info and the info is also pretty much publicly available for the masses to read. Luckily, 95% of people are lazy and won't. The reason I'm responding to you is because I can see some resemblance of myself (I used to act like you) but I would try hard at times and also you seem to be trying to respond maturely and respectfully, I also am hoping I can open your eyes to this so called big picture and be more appreciative of your poker friends and coaches that help you, I realize you said that you are but I'm saying even more than that. The fact that you are not happy with short answers, already covered this a bit, but you have to remember that there are 24 hours in a day. The coaches have to do their own grinding, studying, personal life, etc. Be happy that you get a response in the first place and work even harder than you are to dig deeper.

Also, if I was privately coaching you, then it would be more reasonable for you to criticize my teaching publicly because you are paying me directly. Even then, I think if you got coaching from any winning poker pro that beats the games these days, you would still take away more info than you paid for. I have done several lessons with internet, there was one that I just wasn't happy with and I'm pretty sure he could tell as well. I didn't however come on here bashing him because I was thankful for the overall info I had learned from him and how much it has helped me progress and how much money I have made because of it. In fact, I recommend him to a lot of people. It would be much more respectful to tell him or post on here that doing x during coaching doesn't work.