NL10SH Zoom KK

4bet pre
And continue value bet in any street with this board.

Still I see alternative - calling villains 3bet and betting flop and turn.

I'm wondering can we raise either turn or river for value?

I doubt you should stack off UTG vs MP 150 bbs deep. Limit is kinda passive....

Villain is with AA here...

this is a tough one. i agree with gasheks, don't like 4betting (maybe exploit 4bet/fold? :f_biggrin: ) as played i also feel like villain shouldn't be on AA too often after the flop check but i've seen it happen...

Originally posted by Tomaloc
this is a tough one. i agree with gasheks, don't like 4betting (maybe exploit 4bet/fold? :f_biggrin: ) as played i also feel like villain shouldn't be on AA too often after the flop check but i've seen it happen...
Why its a tough one? We got super dry board. I'm wondering why hero checked after villain checked back on flop? He was afraid of raise or what? Or he assumed that villain will start barreling once we double check?

@nitrol: nope, try again
@ gAsheks: yeah, might have been better to lead the turn

i mean tough one on whether to raise or not, i mean i hardly see us being behind very often here but on the other hand can he call + we actually are behind sometimes...
that said, i would probably lead somewhat large ott myself i think villain will keep checking AK but will not fold to a bet, choose sizing against random pairs, etc

I see little advantage to 4betting pre, unless you have reason to suspect him of being a spewy fish, I think you played it best by flatting villains 3b.

From villains POV - surely all value hands need to bet that flop? On such a dry board they don't rep much and will be able to extract value from a lot of Ahi floats or weaker pairs. This is assuming villain has a value hand of course. Having not done so, I think villains flop check looks pretty weak. If it turns out that villain did check back value on that flop then I think it pretty weak and would make a note - DISCLAIMER: This is how I think about cbetting in 3bet pots on dry boards but my approach might be completely wrong.

x/r Turn or leading with a big bet sizing would extract value from 9T (my guess at what he had btw, not that it is relevant) however, as I think the majority of his range is weaker then this (considering the above) I think that we are resigned to trying to extract value from a weaker hand and could either lead the Turn very small or check, both hoping to induce.

If villain turns up with something like A4s, a FH, or AA then GG and I think they have missed value not betting the flop and I would make a note.

I think default should be 4bet/broke. 150bb is not that deep. And 4bet/fold would be a huge mistake if he brokes KK+. The thing is we just dont know him yet. However it would be an interesting situation if he does not 5bet all-in but something like 45bb.

I am suspicious of one thing: his 3bet size. If 150bb deepness really does not change much then he basically tells us that he has a stronger range because he makes his bluffs less profitable

Originally posted by HkFui
I think default should be 4bet/broke. 150bb is not that deep. And 4bet/fold would be a huge mistake if he brokes KK+. The thing is we just dont know him yet. However it would be an interesting situation if he does not 5bet all-in but something like 45bb.

I am suspicious of one thing: his 3bet size. If 150bb deepness really does not change much then he basically tells us that he has a stronger range.:f_confused:

Interesting thoughts on pre-flop situation.
What do you think of villains check-back on the flop?

well you have like 25% or something against KK+ so calling off a 120bb something shove against that range should be a disaster

Sometimes, I try to read opp by timing. On any flop without ace, I would bet pot after waiting a while. It would give him time to think about his hand. If he fold or raise, it is easy decision. When he call, I check the timing. Quick call, TT+, all others would stall a little. AA would either just call after one second or min-raise.

Originally posted by londonsystem
Sometimes, I try to read opp by timing. On any flop without ace, I would bet pot after waiting a while. It would give him time to think about his hand. If he fold or raise, it is easy decision. When he call, I check the timing. Quick call, TT+, all others would stall a little. AA would either just call after one second or min-raise.

Although I think timing tells are not without value, you want to be careful with this sort of thinking as response time is also effected by completely arbitrary stuff. Eg. multi-tabling (most common) spilled their water bottle, mate gave them a nipple cripple, changing soundtrack etc etc etc

True about timing. Lol about nipple cripple. (sorry for offtopic)

What do you think of villains check-back on the flop?

Just some thoughts, im not sure: Its a very good board for him to continue. He can fold out our Ax and some lower pockets with one or two bets with his bluffs and he gets calls from worse with his good hands. If he shows me AA after checking back the flop he is probably a weak player. I would guess that he mainly 3bets for value preflop and then gets the idea to check his strong hands back on this dry flop. Because he knows that he does not have bluffs.

well you have like 25% or something against KK+ so calling off a 120bb something shove against that range should be a disaster

You forget that we play AA the same way, that makes 50% equity

but in this spot you have KK and not AA and with KK against KK+ it's clearly not profitable to call off a 120bb something shove, and if it's not profitable why would you do it...
if in this 150bb deep UTG vs MP spot villain actually plays 4bet/call with KK while we only 4bet/call AA, then we are printing money because he doesn't understand how narrow our range is.

the usual reasonings for 4bet/calling KK would be "balancing" and "he is 5betting worse", which don't apply because it's nl10 and people are hardly ever bluffing anywhere nearly enough in this spot so you can expect the 5bet to be KK+ pretty much all the time.

but in this spot you have KK and not AA and with KK against KK+ it's clearly not profitable to call off a 120bb something shove, and if it's not profitable why would you do it...

Because otherwise you would fold to much of your 4bet range which makes you vulnerable to bluff shoves.

you can expect the 5bet to be KK+ pretty much all the time

Maybe. But i think that would be an argument to not play 4bet/fold with KK which is what i was saying. Instead 4bet/broke or call vs 3bet. 4bet/fold should be the worst option

4bet pree you are loosing value here....