88 in 3b pot OOP

ugh I'm not sure I like calling OOP vs the 3bet.. that's not really a wide 3bet% and it's probably not as loose as it should be on the BU. Also the handcount isn't that great.

As played it looks fine, he has something that beats you on the river. While I would like to think people barrel FDs, he can easily be checking back assuming he has little FE. I don't see any Tx hands in his range, so my guess is JJ+ and flushes.. most likely flushes since I'm pretty sure people will barrel their overpairs on this flop. Unless he is scared of you having trips or something stupid.

What do you do on the flop if the board is 977?

Aren't JJ+ betting the turn too?

I do not like to defence this hand OOP too.

OOP i might 4bet bluff small pockets since he 3bets so wide in BTN. 9%
As played I bet river 100% like 23bb and fold to a raise.

Just fold pre flop

Originally posted by Matorzinho
Just fold pre flop

exactly. i don't understand the idea behind even thinking about 4betting with 88. it's too strong as a bluff and too weak as a value hand. if you think there's enough dead money to pick up then block his value range and do it. 9% 3bet over 271 hands is lolsample and doesn't represent his specific tendencies from BUvMP. you also have better hands in your range than to bet the river with 88 - it's too thin. you isolate yourself or you fold his AK. your range looks like TT, JJ, AQ for calling the 3bet preflop, and once you call flop i doubt he puts you on AQ. i don't think he's gunna take his AK and bomb river to make you fold your JJ - he will check back probably all hands that you beat and bet everything that beats 88.

Originally posted by DrDunne
ugh I'm not sure I like calling OOP vs the 3bet.. that's not really a wide 3bet% and it's probably not as loose as it should be on the BU. Also the handcount isn't that great.

As played it looks fine, he has something that beats you on the river. While I would like to think people barrel FDs, he can easily be checking back assuming he has little FE. I don't see any Tx hands in his range, so my guess is JJ+ and flushes.. most likely flushes since I'm pretty sure people will barrel their overpairs on this flop. Unless he is scared of you having trips or something stupid.

What do you do on the flop if the board is 977?

Hi

I would call on a 977 board as he should bet his gutshots and stuff. I'm often still ahead vs his range.

I don't really get why we shouldn't defend 88 ? Ok it's hard to play oop and maybe I'm thinking to theoretical but 88+ keeps a lot of sets in our range on different boards + it makes sure that we still have some kind of hand on low boards.

I'm pretty sure theoretically 88 is a defend, but I understand that exploitably we could fold.

As far as talking about 4bets. We should not 4bet 88 .. in this spot I use my low suited aces for 4bet bluffs as they retain equity vs a 4bet calling range and they can flop very strong hands and win A high flops vs BTN's pocketpairs.

+1 to never betting the river .. we only valuetown ourselves. We never let a better combo fold and we never get value from worse

@Nitroll: It's very possible JJ+ bets the turn too, pbb it will on that turn. I'm affraid villain checked behind w/ some sort of draw or nuthand. That would also explain his huge riverbet

Originally posted by Wolfske

Originally posted by DrDunne
ugh I'm not sure I like calling OOP vs the 3bet.. that's not really a wide 3bet% and it's probably not as loose as it should be on the BU. Also the handcount isn't that great.

As played it looks fine, he has something that beats you on the river. While I would like to think people barrel FDs, he can easily be checking back assuming he has little FE. I don't see any Tx hands in his range, so my guess is JJ+ and flushes.. most likely flushes since I'm pretty sure people will barrel their overpairs on this flop. Unless he is scared of you having trips or something stupid.

What do you do on the flop if the board is 977?

Hi

I would call on a 977 board as he should bet his gutshots and stuff. I'm often still ahead vs his range. cool, but i doubt he will have too many gutshots, more likely he has overcards which have significant equity against you

I don't really get why we shouldn't defend 88 ? Ok it's hard to play oop and maybe I'm thinking to theoretical but 88+ keeps a lot of sets in our range on different boards + it makes sure that we still have some kind of hand on low boards.

I'm pretty sure theoretically 88 is a defend, but I understand that exploitably we could fold. we shouldn't defend 88 because we are absolutely crippled on A, K, Q, J -high boards; villain most likely bluffs these a large % of the time but he will also be value betting a large % of the time. and even on boards that we have an overpair on, villain still has QQ+ in his range, or at least 6 outs against us. this is very important. we are forced to start calling when we have an overpair but there is a relatively high % that the turn or river will be unfavourable for us and villain will barrel and we will be in the same spot as just mentioned. we start playing guessing games and calling down with 2nd pair in a huge pot, or folding after investing a significant portion of our stack. i'm not saying it's terrible but i don't think it's good either and if we call PPs in this spot i really feel like 88 should be the very bottom. i'm pretty sure theoretically 88 is a defend too, but that is vacuum play - completely disregards flop, then turn, then river. of course 88 is in the top x% of our range but we would have to calculate the overall multistreet EV for that. i'm not very good at maths and i don't have cardrunnersEV ♦

As far as talking about 4bets. We should not 4bet 88 .. in this spot I use my low suited aces for 4bet bluffs as they retain equity vs a 4bet calling range and they can flop very strong hands and win A high flops vs BTN's pocketpairs. i think this seems much much better than 4betting with 88. do they retain equity vs a 4bet-calling range? guess that depends on villain's 3bet tendencies and how he responds to 4bets.

+1 to never betting the river .. we only valuetown ourselves. We never let a better combo fold and we never get value from worse

@Nitroll: It's very possible JJ+ bets the turn too, pbb it will on that turn. I'm affraid villain checked behind w/ some sort of draw or nuthand. That would also explain his huge riverbet

i put my opinions in bold. basically, i just don't think you have good prospects with mid pockets OOP - your equity might be nice, and it might fit nicely within your top x% of opening range required for a defend, but what about our realisable equity once we consider postflop?

I think 88 is just to keep balance. Like on lower flops we still have pocket pairs and on higher flop or sets have good implieds. It's pbb the weakest hand in my range though.

Nowadays I'm folding 88 btw. Only vs bad players, who may stack off easier, I'll setmine. Vs good regs I often fold the hand, unless they 3bet way to wide. 88 is always tricky postflop though (unless you hit the nuts obv).