Value betting river vs maniac

you played this well you picked a hand tpgk and played it all the way despite villain trying to bully you off the hand.This is the best way to play these guys it is high variance (don't be surprised or upset when he turns over k5 for runner runner outs), Overall we win more against their erractic play than we lose but it is very swingy.

A very instructive hand. Completely dismantles this growler.

I'm not sure that we should call this preflop against 4,4x with the maniac on the BB. As played, I would consider donking the flop, but it's probably fine to check/call. Maybe we can even check/raise. If the BB is a maniac, then we can stack off with TP, I guess.

Originally posted by Alleen86
I'm not sure that we should call this preflop against 4,4x with the maniac on the BB.

Yes, it can be -EV call vs other opponent.
Was thinking that my hand is a bit too weak to call so it is a good 3bet bluff hand.
Planned on 3betting preflop but then the maniac was near me so if i call i get him into the pot.

Fold preflop. 4,4bb sizing and you have to play the pot OOP against the fish too. Hard to make money here. And I wouldn't 3b bluff here with AJo against 4,4, actually wouldn't even have a 3b-bluff range against that sizing in nl5.

Postflop is pretty much awful except the flop play. Flop ck/cl is fine, but why would you donk the turn? 2.6 AF isn't that high even. So calling the turn raise is really bad imo, also leading the turn. You could just go for a ck/cl OTT. And what are you raising against here on the river? He has like almost none worse hands that he's calling here with. You are pretty much only going to get called by better and making his bluffs to fold. I'd say your line was really spewwy pretty much all the way.

Even though he this time had A7o you really shouldn't think that your play was good, don't be result oriented!

tl:dr: fold pre, ckclflop, ckcl turn, clf river

Originally posted by iiikrrr
Fold preflop. 4,4bb sizing and you have to play the pot OOP against the fish too. Hard to make money here.

If the fish was 3betting preflop ,i was probably calling. Main opp is fish and we have good equity vs him.

Originally posted by iiikrrr
And I wouldn't 3b bluff here with AJo against 4,4, actually wouldn't even have a 3b-bluff range against that sizing in nl5.

Villain was in CO so he can have a 20% range at least! Maybe he was adapting his raising size to the fish too.
yes AJo,KQo,TJs,QJs,ATs, A5s is in our 3bett bluff range in this spot.
Dont need to make the sizing 3x to the original raise for it to work.

Originally posted by iiikrrr
tl:dr: fold pre, ckclflop, ckcl turn, clf river
i dont really understand what tl:dr: means

Originally posted by bonecore

Originally posted by iiikrrr
Fold preflop. 4,4bb sizing and you have to play the pot OOP against the fish too. Hard to make money here.

If the fish was 3betting preflop ,i was probably calling. Main opp is fish and we have good equity vs him.

Originally posted by iiikrrr
And I wouldn't 3b bluff here with AJo against 4,4, actually wouldn't even have a 3b-bluff range against that sizing in nl5.

Villain was in CO so he can have a 20% range at least! Maybe he was adapting his raising size to the fish too.
yes AJo,KQo,TJs,QJs,ATs, A5s is in our 3bett bluff range in this spot.
Dont need to make the sizing 3x to the original raise for it to work.

Originally posted by iiikrrr
tl:dr: fold pre, ckclflop, ckcl turn, clf river
i dont really understand what tl:dr: means

In this case pot would be pretty big and your SPR small obv. Then you'd OOP against a fish... There aren't too many nice boards for you. I don't think that even the fish is going to 3B light here preflop. And when the reg opened so big he is 100% on a value range here, he is not opening 20% here with 4,4bb sizing. And he is also 23/15 so I don't see him opening nearly 20% with 4,4bb. Even though you'd be ahead of his range slighlty playing OOP with AJo you are screwed. At least I know I would be.

But anyways the bigger mistakes were made on the later streets postflop. Maybe folding AJo is some what nitty, but in SB here I would definitely recommend folding it. If we were on BB and the fish SB then we could call, but on SB I don't think so.

Why did you raise the river? Why did you lead the turn? Why did you call both his raises?

e. Against 20% opening range you are ahead 52-48....
e2. Against little bit better formed 20% range you are a 51-49 favorite.

Originally posted by iiikrrr
Why did you raise the river? Why did you lead the turn? Why did you call both his raises?

you didnt tell me what tl:dr: means
Lead turn for value vs a flush draw or a weaker pair that he might raise with. Which happened.
Wanted to check/call a large bet on river but he bet so small.

Originally posted by iiikrrr
e. Against 20% opening range you are ahead 52-48....
e2. Against little bit better formed 20% range you are a 51-49 favorite.

OK so we are OOP and the chances are worse. So it is too weak to call.
This is actually the definition why we 3bet bluff

Originally posted by bonecore

Originally posted by iiikrrr
Why did you raise the river? Why did you lead the turn? Why did you call both his raises?

you didnt tell me what tl:dr: means
Lead turn for value vs a flush draw or a weaker pair that he might raise with. Which happened.
Wanted to check/call a large bet on river but he bet so small.

Originally posted by iiikrrr
e. Against 20% opening range you are ahead 52-48....
e2. Against little bit better formed 20% range you are a 51-49 favorite.

OK so we are OOP and the chances are worse. So it is too weak to call.
This is actually the definition why we 3bet bluff

tl:dr=too long didnt read so it was just my main points in short version ♦

If we have info that he is aggressive player why would we bet against him. You shouldn't be too result oriented, even though you won this hand, doesn't mean that you had the best possible line here. Overall I'd say you're going to lose a lot with this line, even against some superhyperaggressive fishes. And why the river raise? Do you think that he is going to call with a range that you are over 50% favorite? Since I think you went for a value OTR? And you can't bet/raise for value if you aren't at least 50%+ favorite against his calling range.

Against this kind a range 44-66,A2s-AQs,87s,76s,64s+,54s,A2o-AQo,Kh5h,Kh4h,6c5h,6s5h,6h5c,6h5s,6h5d,6d5h,5d4h,5h4d,5h4c,5h4s,5c4h,5s4h,Kh7h, you are 49-51 behind. And I don't see him going broke with A2-A8 too often without two pairs, (especially A2-A3 is never going broke here. So against a little bit tighter and more realistic range 44-66,A4s-AQs,87s,76s,64s+,54s,A4o-AQo,Kh5h,Kh4h,6c5h,6s5h,6h5c,6h5s,6h5d,6d5h,5d4h,5h4d,5h4s,5c4h,5s4h,5h4c,Kh7h you are 40-60 behind here, and I still think that it's too wide range to give him here. So he would have to call here with every aces to your river raise not to be awful.

Turn is ridiculous. What do you want to achieve with the donbet? Fold his weaker hands and leave him with the stronger that beat you? And why take the initiative when he is barrelling for us?

Originally posted by nitrol
Turn is ridiculous. What do you want to achieve with the donbet? Fold his weaker hands and leave him with the stronger that beat you? And why take the initiative when he is barrelling for us?

It is just +ev to bet considering the draws.
I would not know if he barrels. My note on him: maniac likes to control the betting. (with that note i mean he raises instead of calling. It was a weird guy.

I found this hand very informative.

Particularly because I face this type of betting action from this type of villain often. I usually don't complete against a raise with AJ against this type. But accept that against his wider range it is probably OK. The villain opens with the weak ace and is exploitable. V. check raises his made hand and your call is good. I make notes on every weak ace and check raise. (I usually fold ). His tiny bet on the river is what it looks like. I would call. Your river raise I would expect he would fold, but you expose his last weakness, he is a sheep in wolves clothing.

After reviewing this hand I have been experimenting with min clicking back when I am ahead for value and seems to be working a treat.

Thanks for posting.

:-)

Hello bonecore, i mean no offense really. I notice you are overanalyzing everything which is great, that`s the way to grow. You are doing it reaaaly wrong IMO. THe whole hand is terrible, everytime you have to take an action you screw it up and you convince yourself it`s correct for really wrong reasons. Preflop is 3bet/fold like everytime, flop is ok, turn is ridiculous and river is clicking buttons.

Originally posted by excitedpoker
Preflop is 3bet/fold like everytime

The target was the fish , so why not let him in the pot. That is the reason to call.

Originally posted by excitedpoker
river is clicking buttons.

Yes it was

excitedpoker is right. It is easy to fall into the trap of motivating a ridiculous play with some magic "reads". You were just incredibly lucky to have the best hand at showdown. You lose to most of his A, and expecting him to call with a worse A, ..., well, I might do it in fixed limit versus a confirmed nutbag.

Originally posted by bonecore

Originally posted by excitedpoker
Preflop is 3bet/fold like everytime

The target was the fish , so why not let him in the pot. That is the reason to call.

Everything is ok, BUT... your hand is not playing ok in a multiway pot... See the difference?

I'd also either 3bet/fold or fold preflop for reasons already explained. Flop is ok, but turn donk is also bad; if he's a maniac, let him bet. I'd also not play that hand to all in as you did unless he's raising like every hand on flop and turn, which he doesn't, so i'm folding turn after getting raised as played as well. He called with good odds preflop and a large part of his drawing range just got to a straight, two pair, set or a combo flush draw that you'll play badly against on the river as well. River raise is insane. Call that weak bet and hope that you survived the hand, I don't know how he could call against c/r unless you yourself played like a maniac the whole game.