Why are you trying to prove others wrong?
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Originally posted by Hesticus
Why are you trying to prove others wrong?
What do you mean?
Originally posted by nitrol
You should raise bigger preflop, and you cannot fold on flop.
I think he can 
So what is ur thought about the range of villain here ?
Originally posted by Wazzza16
Originally posted by nitrol
You should raise bigger preflop, and you cannot fold on flop.I think he can
So what is ur thought about the range of villain here ?
Finally someone on my on my wave lengh 
Originally posted by FrozenElf
Originally posted by Hesticus
Why are you trying to prove others wrong?What do you mean?
I observe that you show a different view on the hand than some others and question them and you have arguments based on your view and against others' views. My question is why?
Originally posted by Hesticus
Originally posted by FrozenElf
Originally posted by Hesticus
Why are you trying to prove others wrong?What do you mean?
I observe that you show a different view on the hand than some others and question them and you have arguments based on your view and against others' views. My question is why?
Because people say i should do this i should do that etc ... I am questioning there reason for it take this example below posted by nitrol he says and i quote "You should raise bigger preflop, and you cannot fold on flop." But when i ask him why he just ignores my comment because he doesn't know why, ill argue until you give me a valid reason why i should have called the flop but so far its an easy fold look again at my equity vs a range witch i belive im giving him way too much credit based on the actions so far i beleive our equity is more like 15% i have 28% how is that im any way a call i can only call a 28% of the pot bet.
Originally posted by nitrol
You should raise bigger preflop, and you cannot fold on flop.
Lol.
I know very well why I write you this. The problem is that you do not get it as not only I write you this.
You should bet bigger preflop as with the small bet you invite all players to join and guess what - with every additional player in the pot you lose equity.
You do not want a mw pot, you want to face 1 opponnent with a strong hand. With every additional player you increase the possibility to get outflopped.
Let's say you face this while HU:
MP2 83.76% 83.45% 0.31% AhAc
MP3 16.24% 15.92% 0.31% QQ-99, AQs-AJs, KQs, AQo
You get this when vs 2:
MP2 71.97% 71.68% 0.30% AhAc
MP3 14.01% 13.67% 0.35% QQ-99, AQs-AJs, KQs, AQo
CO 14.01% 13.67% 0.35% QQ-99, AQs-AJs, KQs, AQo
You get this vs 3:
MP2 62.75% 62.44% 0.31% AhAc
MP3 12.42% 12.06% 0.36% QQ-99, AQs-AJs, KQs, AQo
CO 12.42% 12.06% 0.36% QQ-99, AQs-AJs, KQs, AQo
BU 12.42% 12.06% 0.36% QQ-99, AQs-AJs, KQs, AQo
Your reasons - There was an article, one friend told me, I have a cousin.... does not hold ground.
And you and Wazzzza16 did not answer to this:
With what hands will you continue?
P.S.Try to figure outand askthe right questions and you will get the right answers.
I don't think that you should EVER be folding on this flop. You are basically at the top of your range in this spot (You shouldn't be 3-betting a UTG open with JJ, 99 or 55 pre). So you have more or less the best hand you can have here. So you really shouldn't be folding flop. Villain can easily have aired the flop, decided this board connected with his 3-bet cold call range and be trying to steal the pot. But no, You should never fold here to one bet. Flat and re-evaluate on the turn.
Originally posted by 5trang3
I don't think that you should EVER be folding on this flop. You are basically at the top of your range in this spot (You shouldn't be 3-betting a UTG open with JJ, 99 or 55 pre). So you have more or less the best hand you can have here. So you really shouldn't be folding flop. Villain can easily have aired the flop, decided this board connected with his 3-bet cold call range and be trying to steal the pot. But no, You should never fold here to one bet. Flat and re-evaluate on the turn.
U realy think they got that level on the NL5 ?
Originally posted by nitrol
With what hands will you continue?
Almost none lol, if i had here Q♠:T♠: i would continu lol,
I just realy thinks he has his set for 90% of the time with this kinda line.
Nitrol, what range would u give him here ? with what hand, he would play like this ?
Originally posted by Hesticus
Originally posted by FrozenElf
Originally posted by Hesticus
Why are you trying to prove others wrong?What do you mean?
I observe that you show a different view on the hand than some others and question them and you have arguments based on your view and against others' views. My question is why?
Its good to discuss with eachother 
we all want to be bether right 
Originally posted by Wazzza16
Originally posted by nitrol
With what hands will you continue?Almost none lol, if i had here Q♠:T♠: i would continu lol,
I just realy thinks he has his set for 90% of the time with this kinda line.
Nitrol, what range would u give him here ? with what hand, he would play like this ?
In fact this is a nice range:
JJ-99, 55, KdKh, KdKs, KdKc, QdQh, QdQs, QhQs, QdQc, AJs, AsKs, AsQs, JsTs, Ts9s, 9s8s, 8s7s, 7s6s, 6s5s, AJo
On micro limits there are many players that pot donk flop, then xf turn. So practically he can be even wider than the range above.
Hmmmm interesting,
Isnt that to wide ? Like 55 AJo and a couple of SC ? i guess it wouldnt be profitable playing that hands in that situation right ?
i'm not a SH player, ill guess the ranges are wider SH then FR right ? or am i wrong ?
If i had like QQ KK in that situation, i would make an 4Bet, His range for making a 3bet is pritty wide there? or the stats had to say something else haha
I don't know what kind of answer you are looking for if our previous answers are not good enough. I have explained that both bad and good players will lead with other hands than just sets. I have also explained why it is good to lead with hands multiway.
I don't assume villain is a fish. I don't assume villain is a good player. He is unknown and his range can be sets only or complete air, who knows. Because there is a good chance that he has other hands than sets too, we should call. Also I think GTO wise this is a call. If we fold here with AA, which hands we are calling? We would be folding vs donks almost 100% and this would be easy to exploit.
You are using only population tendencies (and you even get those wrong imo) to make a big decision. It is almost the same than folding a big pocket pair against a 3bet because villain has never 3bet before but you have only 10 hand sample.
This all comes down to what we think is villains donking range in this situation. There seems to be two different views. 1. villain definitely 100% sure has only those 6 combos here 2. villain can have a lot more hands than sets only.
So far the second view is leading in votes, a lot. Because villain is unknown, we cannot put him on a range accurately and we have to rely to population tendencies. Having those require a lot of experience. The more people agree on those, the better.
So this is opinion against opinion. Of course you don't have to change your opinion but when a bigger crowd disagree with you, maybe it is better to consider if their opinion might have some truth to it.
Originally posted by Wazzza16
Hmmmm interesting,Isnt that to wide ? Like 55 AJo and a couple of SC ? i guess it wouldnt be profitable playing that hands in that situation right ?
i'm not a SH player, ill guess the ranges are wider SH then FR right ? or am i wrong ?
If i had like QQ KK in that situation, i would make an 4Bet, His range for making a 3bet is pritty wide there? or the stats had to say something else haha
Nitrol's range looks quite ok actually.. Some slowplayed QQ,KK can be in his range. AJ might donk imo too, at least I would. You can add or reduce suited connectors, no big change to equity. So if there is a possibility that he has AJ and even couple of combos of QQ and KK in his range, we definitely have a call.
Originally posted by la55i
Originally posted by Wazzza16
Hmmmm interesting,Isnt that to wide ? Like 55 AJo and a couple of SC ? i guess it wouldnt be profitable playing that hands in that situation right ?
i'm not a SH player, ill guess the ranges are wider SH then FR right ? or am i wrong ?
If i had like QQ KK in that situation, i would make an 4Bet, His range for making a 3bet is pritty wide there? or the stats had to say something else haha
Nitrol's range looks quite ok actually.. Some slowplayed QQ,KK can be in his range. AJ might donk imo too, at least I would. You can add or reduce suited connectors, no big change to equity. So if there is a possibility that he has AJ and even couple of combos of QQ and KK in his range, we definitely have a call.
Yeah thats True, hmmmm okee Ty for ur answer..and Nitrol's to
Ill guess i play way to save and need to learn what range i can give players haha
Originally posted by la55i
Originally posted by Wazzza16
Hmmmm interesting,Isnt that to wide ? Like 55 AJo and a couple of SC ? i guess it wouldnt be profitable playing that hands in that situation right ?
i'm not a SH player, ill guess the ranges are wider SH then FR right ? or am i wrong ?
If i had like QQ KK in that situation, i would make an 4Bet, His range for making a 3bet is pritty wide there? or the stats had to say something else haha
Nitrol's range looks quite ok actually.. Some slowplayed QQ,KK can be in his range. AJ might donk imo too, at least I would. You can add or reduce suited connectors, no big change to equity. So if there is a possibility that he has AJ and even couple of combos of QQ and KK in his range, we definitely have a call.
What im trying to ask is, villain is unknown, we dont know what his range for cold calling a 3bet with 200bb stacks he also bets full pot, and his donking range is unknown, from the articals ive read on here, it says you should think players are TAG and play accordingly until you know otherwise.
A Tags donk is usually a strong hand multi way, and there cold calling vs a 3bet range is very strong too, probably stronger since he doesnt have position to collect pot odds, because hes right behind the last aggressor, Yeah maybe he was a fish, and yeah he could donk total air but since we dont know for certain and it looks like were playing for stacks, is it better to find a different spot
The biggest scary thing here was the pot size bet its usually the nuts
A tight aggressive player will find other donks here than sets only. Actually it is bad play to donk only super strong hands.
Since villain is unknown and we can't know his range 100% accurately, we must include at least some overpairs, some TPTK and some flush draws. Even if we add only couple of combos of those hands, we have a call.
It is also good to remember that those articles are several years old so the game has changed a little bit. Some info is slightly outdated and some might give the easiest line for beginners.
I suggest you watch w34z3l's video on multiway pots. That will give you better understanding why good players donk here multiway. I think we can pretty much agree that fish will donk anything. So when half of the player pool (fish and good players) are capable of donking other than sets, we cannot assign villain to a sets only range.