4bet pot oop with a 4bet bluff hand

What about the 4bet bluff OOP with KJo 182bb deep ?

Originally posted by Xixi74
What about the 4bet bluff OOP with KJo 182bb deep ?

Questionable. But doable, if we remember that we are bluffing. Since BU is 182 bb deep with us, he should be careful too. Add to that that BU is a frequent 3-bettor/squeezer, then we may have a 4-bet bluff. A goof-up like here, where we lose 182 bb take many successful bluffs to counter, so a solid postflop game is a prerequisite even if the 4-bet autoprofits.

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by Xixi74
What about the 4bet bluff OOP with KJo 182bb deep ?

Questionable. But doable, if we remember that we are bluffing. Since BU is 182 bb deep with us, he should be careful too. Add to that that BU is a frequent 3-bettor/squeezer, then we may have a 4-bet bluff. A goof-up like here, where we lose 182 bb take many successful bluffs to counter, so a solid postflop game is a prerequisite even if the 4-bet autoprofits.

Thats what i need a solid postflop game in 4bet pots, i have been watching some videos

Ofc BU is also 182 bb, if not it isn't a 182bb deep spot ahah

I totally not agree. BTN can call a lot of hand with high potential as deep and IP. Axs, SC etc etc.

Then with Kjo we never have q good flop, J high we are often against AJ some showplace QQ-AA, ans the worst is for Kh flop, we are often against KQ and AK.

And in the case our kicker is better, all the draw in BTN range will destroy EV of CO..

I prefer bluff with hand that can play well postflop like sc or one gap sc etc.
If BU fold a lot to 4 bet then we want to polarize our range so we can add some 2gappers etc etc

KJs why not but again I prefer hand that are not crushed by 30% of the opponent range.

EDIT: I realize that I contradict a bit belopw what I usually preach, which is don't squeeze, 3-bet, 4-bet, etc OOP very often with a dominated hand. This holds still, and I'd require plenty of FE to do it with KJ. Xixi74's logic is perfectly valid. END EDIT.

The thing is that you don't want to play the hand postflop. I you call have to play it postflop. Therefore you can bluff with it if you expect a lot of folds. And lots of folds is what you can expect against a liberal 3-bettor, especially since KJ has some blocker effect. Suited connectors you do want to play postflop, especially deep in a single raised pot. Hence you can call with these.

If you think you get few folds, then call with both (since deep, but be careful with KJ). No point in raising at all.

We need to realise that a blocker hand is a bluff only and we make money from the times they fold, from some videos and what you said this hand is preflop ONLY if we get called we should check fold unless we flop a monster 2 pair, a set or straight and use it for preflop gain

we cant bluff catch and we cant bet for value often enough to make this playable postflop

maybe rare occations when it checks to river and he bets maybe this could be the only bluff catch

It is not a bluff only because sometimes we'll have to play postflop, it's difficult and we are not winning big pot in these spots, but we have to play well.

ofc I agree with the blocker effect (and it is not amazing with this hand, QKo and AJo are much better, also post flop), but as we see BU is not playing like fold or 5bet. Therefore, we want also good postflop hands, and ignore that is a leak.

A range with some middle SC, and some QK could be ok. But we have to pay attention because we'll quickly overbluff this spot.

PS: With a fish in the spot BU has not a wide range !!
PS: Basically, if you want to exploit your opponent because he 3bet too much in this spot, 4bet is not the solution. He'll play postflop with a weak range, and we'll make money like that (especially if you don't feel comfortable in 4bet pot.

Originally posted by Xixi74
Then with Kjo we never have q good flop, J high we are often against AJ some showplace QQ-AA, ans the worst is for Kh flop, we are often against KQ and AK.

And in the case our kicker is better, all the draw in BTN range will destroy EV of CO..
I prefer bluff with hand that can play well postflop like sc or one gap sc etc.
If BU fold a lot to 4 bet then we want to polarize our range so we can add some 2gappers etc etc
KJs why not but again I prefer hand that are not crushed by 30% of the opponent range.

I totaly agree on this, look, villain who is 3bet happy likes to play some poker, so I wouldnt assume that he folds alot to our 4bets => our hand plays horribly since we are not even happy if we hit TP => our 4bet is just not that good... I would go that far and say that 72 is even better hand to 4bet than KJ here (I relly mean it btw...).

ahah if you mean 72 so yes !

but 78/79 play better... ahah

Originally posted by Xixi74

PS: Basically, if you want to exploit your opponent because he 3bet too much in this spot, 4bet is not the solution. He'll play postflop with a weak range, and we'll make money like that (especially if you don't feel comfortable in 4bet pot.

I think this is probably the best advice

Originally posted by N3bojsa

Originally posted by Xixi74
. I would go that far and say that 72 is even better hand to 4bet than KJ here (I relly mean it btw...).

Originally posted by Xixi74
ahah if you mean 72 so yes !

but 78/79 play better... ahah

KJ reduce the combos of pocket KK by 50% it also reduces the combos of pocket JJ by 50% and also AK by 25%, witch means he folds more preflop, if we hit a K we will be in front vs JJ-QQ witch is 12 combos and there is then 12 combos of AK and 7 combos of KK+ on a K high flop we are in way better shape then if we hit tp with a 72 79 or 67 etc, if he calls wider like 99-TT we are ahead of his range with our TP

Yeah a J high flop we should just check fold,

Do you win a hand only with KK JJ and AK ?

I say that because when you look the blocker effect, you have to look the blocker effect on the global range and not just on few hands (especially preflop, ofc it could be different post flop). As I said, as deep, BU will call a very large range. he has to put 4.5$ into a pot of 12$ !! So basically, he could call this entire range, more or less. And if he calls this entire range, your blocker effect doesn't matter: your fold equity with the 4bet is 0%. I'm not sure I am clear.

Originally posted by FrozenElf
KJ reduce the combos of pocket KK by 50% it also reduces the combos of pocket JJ by 50% and also AK by 25%, witch means he folds more preflop, if we hit a K we will be in front vs JJ-QQ witch is 12 combos and there is then 12 combos of AK and 7 combos of KK+ on a K high flop we are in way better shape then if we hit tp with a 72 79 or 67 etc, if he calls wider like 99-TT we are ahead of his range with our TP

Yes thats true, now look at it from different perspective:
- What makes money in poker? - Possition and iniciative (and skillz...). What ur doing here is saying "oh look, he has less KK and AK, so I will give him possition and build a big pot while being 200bb deep, lets see whats gonna happen!" You see how bad it is right? And eventhough he doesnt have them THAT often, are you really going to put in 200bb every time you hit something?
- Like it or not, he WILL outplay you in possition, thats just how it works (hint: why is BTN your most profitable possition? is it because you have AA most of the time there? quite the opposite is the truth, so how come you make more money in BTN then in UTG, where you have AA more frequently once you enter pot?)
- not sure about nl25, but at higher limits its not only about having AA or KK in 4bet pots. People will play variety of hands given impied odds and all that stuff, so you cannot even count on you knowing precisely what he has... I see your initial assumption about how strong ranges should look like - I believe thats whats going on in your head (because you wouldnt call 4bet in his shoes with 98s and you project your assumption on him), check your database and see, I believe even at nl25 you will be surprised
- What if you miss? Whta if both of you guys miss and he has 8hi?

Originally posted by Xixi74
...
PS: Basically, if you want to exploit your opponent because he 3bet too much in this spot, 4bet is not the solution. He'll play postflop with a weak range, and we'll make money like that (especially if you don't feel comfortable in 4bet pot.

The liberal 4-bet is part of the solution. It would be might strange if it were not, since villain is in there with a wide range, don't you agree? Another part of the solution is to open-raise tighter. This is so because you know a 3-bet is likely to come. Logical, yes/no? Marginal hands lose all profitability.

Opening normally and calling 3-bets librally (OOP) is definitely not a solution, as you do precisely what villain wants. That is to say, he doesn't mind at all getting called whether he bluffs or not since position and initiative is a huge advantage to overcome, in fact, it is impossible. A weak-ish range is beaten by an even weaker range. This is the nature of position. The (equally skilled) opponent automatically makes better postflop decisions because he acts after you.

I have played a lot 3-betting a silly amount. The biggest profit comes from when the 3-bet gets called, usually because a tiny c-bet (bluff!) then is surprisingly effective, and sometimes because you hit monsters when the opponent decides to "make a stand".

Of course 4bet is a part of the solution!

But it doesn't mean you could 4bet any hands! You have to chose them carefully.

I hope you win money when you 3-bet ahah. But you are speaking about a strategy, this strategy works ONLY if your opponent is bad, and if your opponent doesn't know protect his range so you exploit that. And it is good.

But we are here to improve our skill, and play oop against a weak range is definitely not a problem.
I neither say "call 3bet liberally", we still can fold 40%: opponent has not an autoprofit 3betting, we'll play very well in3bet pot, and opponents will cry against our 4betting range.

Of course is not a comfortable situation, but we can win EV, so we take it

So what is the best solution here, in this situation, we hold KJo isoing a limper and we beleive we will run into a 3bet more often then not, so we have a few options

#1 - Fold and wait for a better hand like AQ, KQ, 99+
#2 - Raise planning to fold
#3 - Raise planning to call
#4 - Raise planning to 4bet

After reading what you guys are writing i beleive folding is probably the best option.

The main question i was trying to ask, was the postflop situation, so i had a plan in future so i didnt make this kind of mistake, what would we do when say

#1 - when we completely miss the flop - i guess this is check fold
#2 - when we hit a draw - probably good to double barrel shove this hand
#3 - when we hit our bottom pair - check fold
#4 - when we hit our top pair - i think this is about the only hand strong enough to continue for 1-2 streets of value aslong as we dont have to check call flop and check call river

I know you were asking about postflop, but a good postflop game begins with a good preflop one!

First of all and as I said, I am not sure that the 3betting range from BU is wider! I think it isn't.
Si yes KJ is definitely not the best hand to 4bet bluff.

Well, as played: as pleayed is difficult to help we, we do not know what is your range on this spot, we don't know what bluff could you have, what value hands etc... But, you can checkor bet on the flop, but turn a check/call is probably better. However, it will be a very difficult spot on the river, as he'll bluff every GS and FD he has (and we block some with K♥: )..