Facing river overshove with a weak full house

Obviously a fold otr, as for the pre-flop I wouldn't raise the utg with this hand in the first place

A fold for sure. We cannot call mid pairs when being mw. People play more tight and honest when being mw. Agree that we should be careful what to raise vs UTG. Mostly they are strong and their range is tight enough to mostly call 3bets anyway. As this is a bluff with KTs, I believe that in terms of equity we cannot make villain often enough fold his hands to make it a profitable bluff.

Call IP pre. Ap easy fold otr.

I can agree with the preflop 3-bet being too loose, maybe I should have just called instead. However, I don't see why it is an easy fold OTR. After the flop goes triple check, he could be taking a stab with lots of hands that picked up some value on the turn. KQs, Broadways with flush draws are all in his range, and he may very well follow these up with a river shove after facing a call. On the other hand, I can't really think of any value hands in his range other than JJ, or TT which I block, he can rarely call preflop 3-bets with AJ in that situation, overpairs would also 4-bet pre in most cases.

By the way, because of the above described thinking process I ended up calling, and he showed 54cc for quads. Silly me! Didn't include that in his range.

Fold to the shove. Under the best scenario, you will split. I don't see him shoving with anything weaker.
As for pre-flop... if you were raising on bluff, then raise more. If you were raising for value... then stop doing it. A call is OK.

In my opinion this hand would be a bad call vs UTG open. I would fold even KJs against a 3bb or bigger open. But since this is only 2.5bb open we can defend wider. In position we likely want to 3bet with more merged range and this hand works ok imo. (this is also marked as 3bet in w34z3l's ranges vs 2.5bb open).

You could fold this pre, but if you decide to play it I prefer 3bet bluff.

if you were raising on bluff, then raise more.

And about this. 1) raising bigger as a bluff is a sizing tell 2) this is already bigger than 3x raise. When we are in position, we usually can raise smaller than 3x.

Originally posted by la55i

if you were raising on bluff, then raise more.

And about this. 1) raising bigger as a bluff is a sizing tell 2) this is already bigger than 3x raise. When we are in position, we usually can raise smaller than 3x.

Cool logic :f_ugly:. Now, imagine that the villain was limping instead of raising. Were you still going to raise him less than 3x? I don't see any tell in solid raising. You should always raise more. The purpose is to deny him favourable odds for a wide range of hands which should result in a fold.

Against a limper I think it is standard to raise it to 4 or 5bb. But I don't know what it has to do with this?

I believe that the most used 3bet size is 3x villains original open. Some do 3bet 3x -1bb IP and +1bb OOP. Hero's 3bet is already 3x + 1bb even when in position and I see absolutely no reason to go bigger. Why would we?

You said that if our raise is a bluff, it should be bigger. Do you mean that we should generally be betting bigger or we should be betting bigger because it is a bluff?

From these positions I try to keep my defending range tight and depolarized. I believe my range has too many good hands for using a larger 3bet size.

I think the 3-bet sizing is pretty standard, I do not intend to go any higher, and especially not to change the sizing depending on hand strength, etc.
la55i, what's your opinion about the river decision? Although most people said that I'm still not convinced that it is a fold, it seems like many of you completely ignore that he could have bluffs in his range. Actually I think in this spot he has more bluffs than value hands. Obviously if we knew he is value shoving it would be an easy peasy fold.

I'm at work now so I have to think about this better when I get home, but my initial thoughts are that you have to defend only about 30% of your range against this big bet. Since you are the 3bettor you will have AA,KK maybe QQ and maybe some Jx (like AJo as a bluff) in your range.
So Tx might not be at top 30% of your range. You can of course bluff catch wider if you believe villain is bluffing more than he should.

I will think this better later today and also run this through Snowie

I used my own ranges as a starting point and for me this would be a fold OTR.
I would basically end up calling with this range: QQ+,JdJh,JdJs,JhJs,AdJd,AhJh,

Snowie pretty much agrees with all of your decisions here. The exception is that it would fold already OTT but it might be because it uses different preflop ranges. If I use mine and defend with correct frequency OTT, I believe this hand would still be a call.

There are good reasons for not raising very much preflop. The hand itself hardly warrants a call from CO, which means that it is a prime candidate for raising for a LAG. When you raise preflop in position, your aren't desperate at all to "get enough folds" right away. Your goal here isn't to fold out AQs or the like preflop. You should be able to make money with this hand postflop, with position and initiative. The "threat of future bets" is actually more scary for a decent villain than the actual bet size. You can recycle this reasoning for sizing on the flop and turn as well.

If you think you "have to" raise big to "autoprofit", then instead fold. The bluffs become too expensive, and the postflop game might not be ready for LAG-style poker. Remember that there are three active players behind, and KTs is already very marginal CO vs UTG - even to a LAG. Be happy if you can buy position. I either raise 2.5x or fold. On the button I call.