The Real 5 Card Draw

I actually like FL 5-Card Draw.

I think that the edge goes to knowing
♦  the relative value of each of the hands
♦  the importance of position
♦  when and how to bluff profitably
♦  when and how to bluff catch profitably -- and when not to.

Yes there is luck involved, but as you play against the same people day after day you get to know what to do and when.

I do well at stud on the play money tables.
Not so much real money.

I had intended on playing 100K hands of 5-Card Draw as a project, and I've now exceeded that, but like I say I enjoy it.

I might do stud next -- but it would be 7-Card, and probably not Hi/Lo

Razz looks like loads of fun too, and 2-7 triple draw seems like luckbox heaven to me.

I read Mike Caro's section of SuperSystem but it doesn't really apply nowadays, since it involves a joker, and antes.

5-Card Draw with antes is about all there was when I was growing up -- it seems like that is "Poker" and all the rest are just variations.

I have played 5-Card Draw on line up to $3/$6 but I found the $1/$2 and up just filled with hyper aggro types.

When they come down to $0.10/$0.20 though, I can handle them, and will call (or raise) them, but I have a hard time doing that at $1/$2. When $2 means as little to me as $0.20 then I'll probably do OK at $1/$2

Cheers,
--VS

In limit poker, all hi-lo games reward skill to a greater extent than all hi-only games (or lo-only games). So the best game in the stud family is hi-lo seven card stud. And the best variant of _that_ is the variant where you declare hi or lo by holding a chip or no chip or two chips in your hand over the table and all declaring at once. Now, you won't see a live casino spreading that game because of the fear of collusion or simple use of chip-manipulation to change ones declaration once one has glimpsed what the opponents were doing. However, it would be very easy to install a set of hi/lo/both buttons in the software and I am surprised no online site has done that yet. It was one of the most common variants in serious private poker games before the poker boom. I was once the only one going hi or the only one going lo eleven times in a row and I was not cheating or colluding. Observing the betting and the up cards make escaping for half the pot rather easy a lot of the time.

Five-Card Draw is a great no-limit game and I think it would be good pot-limit also.

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Originally posted by WillinPompano
Five-Card Draw is a great no-limit game and I think it would be good pot-limit also.

PokerStars has NL and PL 5-Card Draw, cash and now sadly only NL and PL 5-Card Draw tournaments.

I do much better at FL 5-Card Draw games. I do agree about the Hi/Lo games though. Lately I've been playing PLO8 and liking it. The NL08 tournaments are all about stack size it seems.

All the best,
VS

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
When they come down to $0.10/$0.20 though, I can handle them, and will call (or raise) them, but I have a hard time doing that at $1/$2.
--VS

In this case u should not play $1/$2 because u are money scared.

Originally posted by CptJokerFish

Originally posted by VorpalF2F
When they come down to $0.10/$0.20 though, I can handle them, and will call (or raise) them, but I have a hard time doing that at $1/$2.
--VS

In this case u should not play $1/$2 because u are money scared.
Quite correct. If you look at the original post, right after the part you quoted I mention that "When $2 means as little to me as $0.20 then I'll probably do OK at $1/$2" The post you quoted was written 4 years ago -- how time flies! -- and I'm pretty much OK at the upper limits now.

I still won't play with less than 5 at a table -- I watched two well-respected players playing FL $30/$60 HU earlier this week.
They started out even with about $350 stacks (seems too low to me) and after an hour they were even again, but with well less than that -- around $325

Rake wins!

Cheers,
VS

OMG, $350 is about half of what I'd want to put on the table in that game, and that is talking minimum. You are certainly right about the rake.

Yeah, for limit games 6 big bets is the absolute minimum -- just in case it caps before and after the draw.
I used to sit down with 12, but I upped it to 40 to accommodate stud tables.

It always amazes me when people sit down at a 5-Card Draw table with 3 big bets.
If that's all they can afford, they shouldn't be playing poker!

Cheers,
VS

Wait so bottom line is I should buy in with 40big bets?
What if I'm a noob is doing 10 and autorebuy fine in draw games? ♦

Originally posted by LemOn36
Wait so bottom line is I should buy in with 40big bets?
What if I'm a noob is doing 10 and autorebuy fine in draw games? ♦

My limit tables auto-rebuy if I drop to less than 10 big bets.

for Limit games, you need to have enough chips so that if necessary, you can cap on each street.
For 5-Card Draw this is 6 Big Bets (2 pre-draw and 4 post-draw)
For 2-7 Triple Draw this is 2 pre- and post-draw it is 2-, 4- and 4- for a total of 12.
For Razz and Stud, there is an ante, then two for the first two streets, then 4 for the next two for 12.5 Big bets in all.
Hold'em and Omaha limit games -- I'm not sure -- but I think the betting caps at 2 big bets pre-draw, then 2 on the flop, and 4 each on the T & R -- again 12 big bets.

So...
Sitting down with less than 12 big bets is like showing up to a gun fight armed with a knife.
I use 40 big bets 'cuz I'm lazy and hate reloading.
The thing about limit is you can't lose your entire stack in one hand -- unless it is too small of course.

Cheers,
VS;

In the end I didn't play any 5 card draw
But ended upplaying 25No Limit 5card draw
That game's mental let me tell you
Too bad there's only one table running usually of the whole variant

Footage of my making a fool of mysel
https://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/44141/
Last 30 minutes or so

That was entertaining -- especially the time you shoved AAxxx and villain drew 2.
He had QQQ all along.
You can tell because a) he called your huge bet.
and b) because there was no kicker in his hand (some players might keep QQA , but would never call an all-in with that holding)

AA only beats about 90% of all hands, and vs the hands that already beat it, you have less than 50% chance of improving to a hand that beats theirs.

I don't play NL 5-Card Draw much except in tournaments, where the wins move your up and the losses don't cost you money -- only tournament chips.

I found out the hard way that you can't play NL 5-Card Draw anywhere as freely as FL 5-Card Draw.

In the stream you asked, "Should I be keeping the higher cards" ? I assume that you mean should you keep a kicker with your pair.

In general no -- it severely impairs your chances of drawing 3-of-a-kind.
However, drawing 2 with only a pair disguises your hand when you *do* have 3-of-a-kind

Also, drawing 1 with 3-of-a-kind *is* a good idea, because it doesn't hurt your chances of improving very much, and it really widens your range -- all the way from straight draws, flush draws, two-pair, trips and quads.

5-Card Draw is really a great game I think -- but you can't play it like hold'em even if for no other reason that you have absolutely no idea what villain holds -- the only clue you get is how many cards are drawn.

Another thing you said, "It feels like I'm folding so much". Yeah -- you should be playing only between 20 and 25% of all hands, but much, much wider in the Button and SB -- AQxxx beats 50% of all hands remember.

Peace,
VS

After yesterday I like FL draw even more but was the first time I play it in a STT format with only 3 players in it. I had played it in cash game format, but that’s a little bit different.

Oh thanks for the answer Vorpal
Was for sure fun learning a new game

:f_cool::f_cool::f_cool::f_cool: !!!