Getting tired of constant river beats on Pokerstars

Hi nejcciceman,
I've had long downswings as well, and they can grind away your soul -- making you dread the idea of starting a session.

Any time you feel that way, it's time to take a break.

During that break, read "The Mental Game of Poker" by Jared Tendler and Barry Carter.
Read it through once, and when you're done, go back to playing some small stakes cash -- or SnGs if you'd rather -- and do the exercises in the book.

It helped me.

Basically, if you can't trust the poker room, or if you don't enjoy the game (or both) -- take a break or find a different room (or both)

All the best,
VS

I have concrete evidence that Pokerstars rivers are not accurate to real life odds.

My database has data that will be hard to refute.

I would advise anyone who uses HM3 or Pokertracker to filter for their races on the turn with 80%+ and check results.

If anyone has more than 1000 races in that spot and is winning more chips than losing, even tough they are winning the correct amount of races (+80%) i would be amazed. Im running in MTTs 886 races with av. allin EQ of 92,4%, 91% won races but... Im down -4M chips in the net won and the allin adj. is +41M chips. It is just not normal. I could take those results easy with a smaller sample. But these results look fishy as hell. I win the little races and lose the big ones.

If i have a race for like 5 bbs more and the pot is like 20. Sure go ahead win that. IF the pot is like 20 and some guy goes allin on the turn for 40 more or if i put him allin and he pays for 40 more.... guess what?? ye and I already took a deep look at those hands.

Pokerstars doesnt care who wins but provides an environment to entice action with the action river card. Knowing how to counter that is the key to play there. Not playing good poker. Preety much if its time for someone else to win and the flop has a lot of outs to counter your nuttted hands on the flop you are better off checking than betting. And as someone else said here already u can actually feel that its going to happen. Thats the state of the game at PS.

Please share yout turn races results so we can compare.

Originally posted by jahrumble
I have concrete evidence that Pokerstars rivers are not accurate to real life odds.

My database has data that will be hard to refute.

I would advise anyone who uses HM3 or Pokertracker to filter for their races on the turn with 80%+ and check results.

If anyone has more than 1͇0͇0͇0͇ races in that spot and is winning more chips than losing, even tough they are winning the correct amount of races (+80%) i would be amazed. Im running in MTTs 886 races with av. allin EQ of 92,4%, 91% won races but... Im down -4M chips in the net won and the allin adj. is +41M chips. It is just not normal. I could take those results easy with a smaller sample. But these results look fishy as hell. I win the little races and lose the big ones.

If someone has more than 10,000 such spots, the data will begin to be meaningful.

Your results are similar to my experience with AA.
I would win 80% of the time, but the 20% of the time that I lost, the pots are on average larger.
It was a long hard fight to train myself that I could fold them...

I'm not going to take the trouble to get real numbers, because I don't think it matters all that much.

Q: Are you a winning player overall?
If yes, then you're doing most things right.
If no, then ...

Currently exploiting the system by 3bet/4bet/5bet all trash I can get my hands on and raising every gutshot, backdoor and so on. Works like a charm. On the other hands, premium hands are to be treated with extreme prejudice and mostly be folding versus any agression (both preflop and postflop).

Bronzileans are a force to be reckoned with, although any 2 suited cards might be pushing it a little bit.

-If someone has more than 10,000 such spots, the data will begin to be meaningful.

I have more than 500k hands and i purge my DB so it doesnt get too extensive.

Saying that 10000 races are needed for a 90% spot for a deviation to return to normal is not wanting to look at the results to say the least. A 50%50% spot I could agree with.

I understand where u come from with folding the AA, I sometimes can do that and Im not complaing about that. Thats basic hand reading and board texture. It tough to fold them but possible against some villains. Or are u saying fold preflop cause u know whats coming?

-I'm not going to take the trouble to get real numbers, because I don't think it matters all that much.

If u use HM3 or PTracker why not? Unless u dont study your game you wont find this kind of discrepancies to better your game. These I found while trying to improve my game and studying. Maybe you will be baffled by the findings...

About being a winning player just search on sharkscope for my user on PS.FRESH. Not a HR but a consistant winner along the years.

On a side note Fanko is on the right track. Exploit the system by bluffing a lot more agressively in HU pots and let go of the big hands when there is a lot of action. If three guys go all in and u have AA. Think twice before calling. The odds are not 80%plus any longer, AK is like 30% favourite. So think very well if u want to flip before reaching ITM even with AA/KK. Usually its safer to just fold and steal a couple pots along the way until the FT. The RNG is so blatantly bad that everyone notices the patterns and are afraid to play good poker. Why would we do that? The villains dont fold and get rewarded in the end.

By the way just found this:

https://www.academia.edu/34059393/Online_Poker_Rigged_or_Not_A_statistical_case_study_Pokerstars

It talks about the concept of "leveling the field" to avoid recreational players from leaving. Not that hard to code some kind of "edge" for depositors lets say. Any programmer can code that easily and hide it in the software. This is a concept that is also used in some multiplayer online games like FIFA as an example. They call it "dinamic difficulty" there. And if u search on youtube you will se how much of fairgame play field it makes. Your players go from being the fastest on the planet to being the clumsiest and slowest on the universe.

But this is the thing!! Isnt that what we are all looking for? A fair play field?? A fair game?

Hey jahrumble,

I also suggest you filter by BBs rather than chips, as one FT bad beat hand at blinds of 100k/200k/20k will vastly skew your overall results You should always be making your decisions on BBs rather than chips and thus you should filter that way.

Regards

Laz

Hallo,
Habe auch gerade so eine "Pechsträhne". Meine letzten 12 preflop allins alle Verloren. Egal ob Asse oder den Drilling am Flop, ob mit asse,k gegen3,3 oder 3,3 gegn as,k. 12 mal in Folge. Diese Serien kommDa gibt es keine Lösungen hier sehr oft vor ( seit 2009 bei stars vorher bei Full tilt )
Ich spiele seit 45 Jahren live poker. Wenn da jemand 5 mal an einem Tag mit dem river gewinnt. konnte man wetten, dass er die Karte aus dem Ärmel oder von unten zieht. Ich vermute, dass Stars spektakuläre Spiele um ein vielfaches in die Auswahl stellt und dafür langwierige und Kartenverteilungen mit vermutlich kleinen Payouts rausnimmt. 2 Vorteile: Schnelleres Spiel also öfter Prozente kassieren.
Die Anfänger, die alles egal was es kostet callen und auf kleine Prozente gehen gewinnen öfter und bleiben bei der Stange. Sie würden ja sonst aufhören oder pleite gehen. Nur, wie soll ich die Taktik wechseln. Wie einen Tisch ohne preflopallin gewinnen? Da gibt es keine Lösung. Der Kundendienst kann und darf das nicht bearbeiten. Zum Geldverdienen ist das Portal nicht geeignet. Eher wie im Lotto mal ein großes Ding gewinnen. Mit freundlichen Grüßen Michael

Hi mistertM227,
Welcome to PokerStrategy.com!

You are quite welcome to post in the English forum, but please post in English.
If necessary, you can translate to English using Google Translate before posting.

We also have a German forum?

Thanks!
VS

Interesting. Like I wrote few posts ago, I never thought that online poker was not fair or rigged until I returned to PS after it was 3 years banned in our country. Before I played like 35k micro stakes SNGs (9-180 mans) and MTTs ( mostly SNGs) and had swings from 25-35BI and also chrused it with a ROI 10-30%\. And I know and understand that poker is a brutal game of variance especially online poker. But what is happening last year is really just unreal, so many setups when playing <20bbs BvsB, BvsBU/CO, they are hitting 4/5 of 3 outers like nothing, runner runner straights/flushes. Its like that you can just sit back and watch the magic. I really do not understand what is happening there, maybe with new PS ownership, where is everything going towards other casino games and sports betting so that recreational players/gamblers would enjoy it and have great experience and deposit again in the future.

Couldn't agree more. I thought that when Michigan legalized online poker and Poker Stars partnered with an Odawa casino in the northern Lower Peninsula that the days of seeing virtually every hand being won by a SUCKOUT were through. Now, I'm not a WSOP champion. But I win a good share of the tournaments I play in person with friends because I know a bit about poker odds. And I know that when just about every winning hand is won by an inside straight at the river...or trip 3s take down AA/KK (or something similar) at the river...then something just isn't Kosher. Companies like Poker Stars have the ability to set the odds you'd expect to see in X number of random hands...or to jack up the deck and mess with the odds. And I believe that is what they are doing? Why would a company that? Because there are far more very bad players whose wins depend purely on luck. And they want as many players as possible playing in their rooms. What's the best strategy to get the vast army of very bad players to stick around and pour in million$? When they first sign up, you encourage them by making them think they're poker geniuses...with several wins. Of course, they can't let them win forever. So after racking up x number of wins, they move on to the newer fish...and reward them for their atrocious playing. The object is to hook as many bad players as there are in the poker ocean. Once they're hooked, they become bait for newer fish. Their AA/KK hands which used to win...are now losing to those new fish who stuck around with their pocket 33 to suck out those winning trips at the end. I think Poker Stars might have one of the "loosest" algorithims going.

Pokerstars isn't rigged. I have gone on a 200k hand sample losing/breakeven on Pokerstars playing cash game. I won my losses back and more.

I shall be brutally truthful. Those who complain it is rigged are just losing players in the games they play. They are doing more things wrong than their opponents who in turn are doing more things right.

If you can beat the basecamp 2nl you will never go broke with good bankroll management.

Each level you move up to, the level below is your basecamp which you have proven over a large hand sample (500k) to beat comfortably.

If you can't beat 2nl it's not because Pokerstars is rigged it's because you are a fish. It's time to study and learn how to beat the games, and not come up with irrational conspiracy theories to excuse your bad play and lack of poker ability.

Hi Swisstoons,
Welcome to PokerStrategy.com!

It sounds like you don't trust online poker.

If that is the case it would be unwise to play there.

I'm sure you've heard all the standard arguments:
 Why rig it when the site gets just as much money rigged or not?
 It would be too easy for a room to get caught cheating -- thus losing their source of revenue (this has happened)
 If it is rigged for one, it is rigged for all, yet some players consistently win.

I suggest reading our No Limit Hold'em lessons overview articles you may find something in there that you can use.
If you have any questions, just post them in the Q&A forum.

All the best,
VS

Try to play only flops and turns. Problem solved.

Originally posted by Axif1
Try to play only flops and turns. Problem solved.

Trying for Troll of the Year?

But let's see some hands -- how bad were these bad beats?
@ Swisstoons why not post some hands in the Hand Discussion Forum and let other members give advice

I can confirm this. I crushed the 2.50, 3.50 rebuys 180mans, 0.50-3.50 45man turbos in the past with an ROI of 44% on a sample of 40k games. I began playing again on Stars for many years, I am currently building up my BR at the 1.50s 0.50 turbos 45-90 180man turbos. In the past I know how big my swings could be like 80BI for the 180mans and 35-45 for the 45mans right now I am experiencing an 100BI swing on the 45mans wich is unreal. I am doing the correct play PF and Post and I am still loosing, I am getting setup with ATo on the bubble 9BB and 11EFF vs BB so I have to open jam and he calls with hands he shouldnt and always wins, that's not the only thing in todays games the recreationals seems to win more then the regs it is unbelievble how bad you run theese days, they call with something like KJo vs UTG open 14BB EFF and ofc they win every single flip and it's always some german, canadian or brazilian player aswell, It's like I should call this with AQ because he is very loose, ofc he shows up with AT or AJ always wins.. You get punished for making good calls always, ur ahead and should win in the long run but on a sample of 4900 games currently it feels like something very fishy is going on. I can also add I am very confident with my game and I know alot about varience and how bad you can run but this just seems to be impossible since you have an 80-90% edge over theese players and still loosing every game, bubbling with AK vs KQ when he calls 11BB eff on BB and always gets rewarded for making stupid calls, when you have AA or KK and you get 3bet from BTN you know you might loose even though you should win around 77% of the time it feels like you win 10% of the time. They pot 3bet like 33 always hits a set, dealt QQ in the CO 120BB deep, UTG opens I 3bet he calls, flop is Q58 he donks all in ofc I call, he shows up with A3s turn is 4 of spades he suddenly turned his hand into a straight flush draw and 23% equity and you know what's comming ofc its another spade on river. And this happens to much for it to be accurate and you always loose atleast 90% of the time when you have the nuts on the flop. Since Amaya turned Pokerstars into Jokerstars I believe they do favor massive whales and huge depositors just look at the direction Pokerstars has taken, back in the days when regs was actualling winning and Pokerstars rewarded them they didnt have casino and sports betting, thats the only thing they seem to promote theese days. Up 272 BI atm since January 22nd, playing around 200games a day and now after I made a withdrawal when I cashed big in a 3.30 Bounty builder I am loosing every hand and can't win a single game, it's either the most cruel downswing I ever had or I am just imagening things, can't get 3rd place or higher anymore and because of that the BR took a halt and is decreasing rather then increasing. A good player is on an FT 1 in 4 games in theese but I can't seem to get higher then 5th or 7th place anymore I get setup on the FT every game since I made a withdrawal, everyime I get the big stack I am loosing it with AA or KK or AK when I flop the nuts to something ridicilous like 22s on the bubble when he shouldnt play theese hands esp vs a big stack

And now for the bad beat of the century on Pokerstars I experienced today.

Hero. 9♠:T♠:

Flop: 9♣:9♦::T♥:

Turn 9♣:9♦::T♥: J♣:

River: 9♣:9♦::T♣: J♣: K♣:

Villain: A♣:Q♣:

Is Pstars rigged? No. 5hit happens.

#metoo

HOLE CARDS
Dealt to zAkuto9 [Kh Kd]
lijpeleijertje: folds
PrTz0903: folds
ChaseandHold: calls 20
kakaao: folds
winorwin333: folds
zAkuto9: raises 36 to 56
Solarevicz: calls 56
Ericestrela: raises 224 to 280
Inmat34859: folds
ChaseandHold: folds
zAkuto9: raises 1145 to 1425 and is all-in
Solarevicz: folds
Ericestrela: calls 1054 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (91) returned to zAkuto9
FLOP [Ad Ac 2c]
TURN [Ad Ac 2c] [7c]
RIVER [Ad Ac 2c 7c] [Kc]
SHOW DOWN
Ericestrela: shows [Jc Qs] (a flush, Ace high)
zAkuto9: shows [Kh Kd] (a full house, Kings full of Aces)
zAkuto9 collected 2791 from pot
Ericestrela finished the tournament in 45th place
SUMMARY
Total pot 2791 | Rake 0
Board [Ad Ac 2c 7c Kc]
this time I was lucky its the K of c.. Either way I already knew a 4th club would come on the river

Originally posted by arthurbentley
And now for the bad beat of the century on Pokerstars I experienced today.

Hero. 9♠:T♠:

Flop: 9♣:9♦::T♥:

Turn 9♣:9♦::T♥: J♣:

River: 9♣:9♦::T♣: J♣: K♣:

Villain: A♣:Q♣:

Is Pstars rigged? No. 5hit happens.

I love theese hands, happend to me once but I was the guy from BB repping the set then he has the boat and I hit the straight flush on river ♦ Either way, equity bluff gone horribly wrong on turn not expecting to be semi dead

Originally posted by zAkuto9
I can confirm this. I crushed the 2.50, 3.50 rebuys 180mans, 0.50-3.50 45man turbos in the past with an ROI of 44% on a sample of 40k games. I began playing again on Stars for many years, I am currently building up my BR at the 1.50s 0.50 turbos 45-90 180man turbos. In the past I know how big my swings could be like 80BI for the 180mans and 35-45 for the 45mans right now I am experiencing an 100BI swing on the 45mans wich is unreal. I am doing the correct play PF and Post and I am still loosing, I am getting setup with ATo on the bubble 9BB and 11EFF vs BB so I have to open jam and he calls with hands he shouldnt and always wins, that's not the only thing in todays games the recreationals seems to win more then the regs it is unbelievble how bad you run theese days, they call with something like KJo vs UTG open 14BB EFF and ofc they win every single flip and it's always some german, canadian or brazilian player aswell, It's like I should call this with AQ because he is very loose, ofc he shows up with AT or AJ always wins.. You get punished for making good calls always, ur ahead and should win in the long run but on a sample of 4900 games currently it feels like something very fishy is going on. I can also add I am very confident with my game and I know alot about varience and how bad you can run but this just seems to be impossible since you have an 80-90% edge over theese players and still loosing every game, bubbling with AK vs KQ when he calls 11BB eff on BB and always gets rewarded for making stupid calls, when you have AA or KK and you get 3bet from BTN you know you might loose even though you should win around 77% of the time it feels like you win 10% of the time. They pot 3bet like 33 always hits a set, dealt QQ in the CO 120BB deep, UTG opens I 3bet he calls, flop is Q58 he donks all in ofc I call, he shows up with A3s turn is 4 of spades he suddenly turned his hand into a straight flush draw and 23% equity and you know what's comming ofc its another spade on river. And this happens to much for it to be accurate and you always loose atleast 90% of the time when you have the nuts on the flop. Since Amaya turned Pokerstars into Jokerstars I believe they do favor massive whales and huge depositors just look at the direction Pokerstars has taken, back in the days when regs was actualling winning and Pokerstars rewarded them they didnt have casino and sports betting, thats the only thing they seem to promote theese days. Up 272 BI atm since January 22nd, playing around 200games a day and now after I made a withdrawal when I cashed big in a 3.30 Bounty builder I am loosing every hand and can't win a single game, it's either the most cruel downswing I ever had or I am just imagening things, can't get 3rd place or higher anymore and because of that the BR took a halt and is decreasing rather then increasing. A good player is on an FT 1 in 4 games in theese but I can't seem to get higher then 5th or 7th place anymore I get setup on the FT every game since I made a withdrawal, everyime I get the big stack I am loosing it with AA or KK or AK when I flop the nuts to something ridicilous like 22s on the bubble when he shouldnt play theese hands esp vs a big stack
Hi zAkuto9,
Welcome to PokerStrategy.com!

If you want your posts to be read, why not break them up a bit.
Add a blank line now and again.
The "wall of text" approach to posting means most members will just roll their eyes and move on.

If you came here for sympathy, sad to say, but you won't find it.

All of us have has similar experiences -- lots of 'em -- and although we feel your pain, we generally don't believe that there is any evil at work.

If you don't trust a poker site just don't play there.

Best of luck...
VS