Getting tired of constant river beats on Pokerstars

Originally posted by VorpalF2F

Originally posted by zAkuto9
I can confirm this. I crushed the 2.50, 3.50 rebuys 180mans, 0.50-3.50 45man turbos in the past with an ROI of 44% on a sample of 40k games. I began playing again on Stars for many years, I am currently building up my BR at the 1.50s 0.50 turbos 45-90 180man turbos. In the past I know how big my swings could be like 80BI for the 180mans and 35-45 for the 45mans right now I am experiencing an 100BI swing on the 45mans wich is unreal. I am doing the correct play PF and Post and I am still loosing, I am getting setup with ATo on the bubble 9BB and 11EFF vs BB so I have to open jam and he calls with hands he shouldnt and always wins, that's not the only thing in todays games the recreationals seems to win more then the regs it is unbelievble how bad you run theese days, they call with something like KJo vs UTG open 14BB EFF and ofc they win every single flip and it's always some german, canadian or brazilian player aswell, It's like I should call this with AQ because he is very loose, ofc he shows up with AT or AJ always wins.. You get punished for making good calls always, ur ahead and should win in the long run but on a sample of 4900 games currently it feels like something very fishy is going on. I can also add I am very confident with my game and I know alot about varience and how bad you can run but this just seems to be impossible since you have an 80-90% edge over theese players and still loosing every game, bubbling with AK vs KQ when he calls 11BB eff on BB and always gets rewarded for making stupid calls, when you have AA or KK and you get 3bet from BTN you know you might loose even though you should win around 77% of the time it feels like you win 10% of the time. They pot 3bet like 33 always hits a set, dealt QQ in the CO 120BB deep, UTG opens I 3bet he calls, flop is Q58 he donks all in ofc I call, he shows up with A3s turn is 4 of spades he suddenly turned his hand into a straight flush draw and 23% equity and you know what's comming ofc its another spade on river. And this happens to much for it to be accurate and you always loose atleast 90% of the time when you have the nuts on the flop. Since Amaya turned Pokerstars into Jokerstars I believe they do favor massive whales and huge depositors just look at the direction Pokerstars has taken, back in the days when regs was actualling winning and Pokerstars rewarded them they didnt have casino and sports betting, thats the only thing they seem to promote theese days. Up 272 BI atm since January 22nd, playing around 200games a day and now after I made a withdrawal when I cashed big in a 3.30 Bounty builder I am loosing every hand and can't win a single game, it's either the most cruel downswing I ever had or I am just imagening things, can't get 3rd place or higher anymore and because of that the BR took a halt and is decreasing rather then increasing. A good player is on an FT 1 in 4 games in theese but I can't seem to get higher then 5th or 7th place anymore I get setup on the FT every game since I made a withdrawal, everyime I get the big stack I am loosing it with AA or KK or AK when I flop the nuts to something ridicilous like 22s on the bubble when he shouldnt play theese hands esp vs a big stack

Hi zAkuto9,
Welcome to PokerStrategy.com!

If you want your posts to be read, why not break them up a bit.
Add a blank line now and again.
The "wall of text" approach to posting means most members will just roll their eyes and move on.

If you came here for sympathy, sad to say, but you won't find it.

All of us have has similar experiences -- lots of 'em -- and although we feel your pain, we generally don't believe that there is any evil at work.

If you don't trust a poker site just don't play there.

Best of luck...
VS

Heya, thanks for the advice! Sorry if it looks like that but I have encountered some very strange things recently thats so wierd and it happens frequently and I've seen others have been experiencing the same things aswell the last 2 couple of years. Even old SNE's on another forum was pointing out Pokerstars aswell since Amaya bought them it's all about gambling apperently.

I to have my downs and ups with Poker but I reached a stop halt at this point in a game I am far ahead of the avg player.

I wanted to share my experience of this year so far.

Originally posted by zAkuto9
and it's always some german, canadian or brazilian player aswell

I'm surprised you didn't mention Russian.
I'm always amused to find that Canadians have a fishy reputation.
That might explain why I win at PokerStars

Originally posted by VorpalF2F

Originally posted by zAkuto9
and it's always some german, canadian or brazilian player aswell

I'm surprised you didn't mention Russian.
I'm always amused to find that Canadians have a fishy reputation.
That might explain why I win at PokerStars

I know alot of Canadians that play well at higer stakes, however when it comes to micros it seems that atleast 95% of the players from Canada is tagged as rec or massive whale for the reason they bet 1BB into 30BB pots or LC an shove with something like 74o ♦ The biggest pool here is Brazil, Germany and Canada

Originally posted by zAkuto9

Originally posted by VorpalF2F

Originally posted by zAkuto9
and it's always some german, canadian or brazilian player aswell

I'm surprised you didn't mention Russian.
I'm always amused to find that Canadians have a fishy reputation.
That might explain why I win at PokerStars

I know alot of Canadians that play well at higer stakes, however when it comes to micros it seems that atleast 95% of the players from Canada is tagged as rec or massive whale for the reason they bet 1BB into 30BB pots or LC an shove with something like 74o ♦ The biggest pool here is Brazil, Germany and Canada

Always a juicy table with Canadians and Brazilians sitting on it. Australians also until they were banned.

I have noticed that players from the former Soviet Union bloc tend to be strong players relatively speaking. While the biggest donkeys come from the US, Canada, Australia, United Kingdom etc. If one googles for an IQ chart of the world's nations, the US, Canada, UK and Australia just shade it by 1pt over the former Soviet bloc. What I think is going on here with the skill disparity has nothing to do with average intelligence but everything to do with nations such as US/UK/Australia having more disposable income due to a higher Gross Domestic Product per capita. While former Soviet bloc countries have less disposable income due to lower GDP. So richer nations can afford to gamble recreationally more than the former Soviet bloc players. Who in turn, tend to be more serious about poker because the money means more to them, relatively speaking. An anomaly to this theory would be Brazilian players. They are generally weak players but also come from a low GDP nation.

The games I play have few Russians anymore (non-hold'em games mostly)
When there were many, they were often overly aggressive -- but in general it was successful for them.
I'm not sure why there are fewer -- perhaps it is the time of day that I play now.

They would win large numbers of small pots with there aggression, but lose the occasional big one.
I had always assumed that some Russian poker schools taught that way. After all, PokerStrategy.com teaches TAG style, and there is a strong Russian community here. Maybe Russian students just learn it better ♠_biggrin:

I play against a lot of Canadians, again, due to the hours I play, and also because I play at a site that is only open to Canadians.
There's good ones, bad ones, and lots in between

In the games I play their are a few very good regs that have a sample of 400k games and been on leaderboards on SS for years and they are Russians. Apperently they can live off 0.50-3.50 turbos and few 7$ mtts. In Sweden that is impossible.

I don't know what an avg salaray is in Russia but in Sweden you need around 1000euro a month or more to live, and that's living very cheap.

In the past when I played NL10-25 on Pokerstars their were alot of Russians and they never played a TAG style, they were LAGs atleast the ones that I considered to be a reg. VP of something like 28 3bet of 9-12 and AFq of 52 and they were profitible.

This was before zoom poker came and everyone moved to theese game and became tight. Might just aswell be because of the old VPP system Pokerstars had when building rake was how to gain Rakeback and Supernova

Originally posted by zAkuto9
This was before zoom poker came and everyone moved to theese game and became tight. Might just aswell be because of the old VPP system Pokerstars had when building rake was how to gain Rakeback and Supernova

I find that zoom you're forced to be tight due to all the 3Betting.
I used to call 3Bets wider than I do on zoom tables (in Hold'em)
Also, the idea that you could play break-even poker and live off the rakeback has been dead for several years.

I never did get to that level

Originally posted by VorpalF2F

Originally posted by zAkuto9
This was before zoom poker came and everyone moved to theese game and became tight. Might just aswell be because of the old VPP system Pokerstars had when building rake was how to gain Rakeback and Supernova

I find that zoom you're forced to be tight due to all the 3Betting.
I used to call 3Bets wider than I do on zoom tables (in Hold'em)
Also, the idea that you could play break-even poker and live off the rakeback has been dead for several years.

I never did get to that level

I was calling to wide OOP aswell in 3bet spots, had to tigthen that up for zoom ♦

Though of course I don't subscribe to the "their cheating me" idea, but I watch and suffer from so many unlikely run outs that it is difficult not to start thinking along those lines - maybe I am a rubbish player but over 10 years I have never run good enough for the running bad explanation.

Maybe because I mostly play SnG and Tournaments I see more than in other games - I understand the bets - but not the frequency which which they all end in tears. My particular current favourite is the 3rd card to make your set that actually gives your opponent his str8 / flush when you didn't need the set to win.
Of course I perhaps notice more but this seems to be at its height when the tournament is getting toward the bubble or in the money when the stacks are all some way above BB - seems almost as if a little help is needed to thin down the field and get as many players as poss off to their next game
I play the same time/stake tournies and it strikes me as funny how the bubble almost always comes at about the same time
I can never help wondering if the rivers just just help a little too much to get you to buy in to another tourney or re-load your cash game.

It's not personal but we could just do with eliminating you mr short-stack

I honestly believe it has to do with the Covid 19 outbreak, so many whales are playing compared to before, when you play against theese guys you should expect an incredible ammout of badbeats and suckouts as they can't fold. I play only SNGS and MTTs to and since January I have only had 1 or 2 heaters and mostly break even because I take so many bad beats it's insane, I review some FT situations where I bust and more then 90% of the time I am making the right play and still loosing, I have gathered a sample of 7k games this year so far from 18, 45 and 180man turbos and I am up around 320ABI since January, the suckouts and bad beats has made me take short breaks because I can't handle getting sucked out on 200games in a day, just as you say the time you flop the set or turn it the massive whale has some bullshit hand that got a wierd strange straight or flush when he is playing his 74 from EP you also has the blockers for the nuts with the A or K but that doesnt really matter at the micros.

The most hilarious thing is how many times you loose with top set and the guy donks all in on turn with 12% equity and hits it on river then loose his entire stack he just won in the next 2 hands.

I to take alot of bad beats at the bubble or ITM playing for the 3rd or higher wich is crucial for ur winrate in 45-180mans. Some guy is not ICM aware and always wins the flips even when your ahead with AK and he has something like A3, Like they get paid for playing bad, It really makes you stop pushing correctly from the BTN to avoid theese "flips".

Hi 2bad2bluff,
Welcome to PokerStrategy.com

It is hard to take at times.
I recently had a week where I was beaten at 5-Card draw three times in the same week by players who drew 3 cards and hit a full house. The odd of that draw are 97:1 against.

Yesterday I did the same to someone.

Originally posted by 2bad2bluff
Though of course I don't subscribe to the "their cheating me" idea, but I watch and suffer from so many unlikely run outs that it is difficult not to start thinking along those lines -

Of course I perhaps notice more but this seems to be at its height when the tournament is getting toward the bubble or in the money when the stacks are all some way above BB - seems almost as if a little help is needed to thin down the field and get as many players as poss off to their next game
I play the same time/stake tournies and it strikes me as funny how the bubble almost always comes at about the same time
I can never help wondering if the rivers just just help a little too much to get you to buy in to another tourney or re-load your cash game.

It's not personal but we could just do with eliminating you mr short-stack

What is a "likely" runout?

The blind structures of tournaments are designed so that they typically last a certain length of time overall.
This helps players plan their sessions.

There are some articles in the strategy section for SnGs that go into great detail about how to play at different blind levels, and a host of videos as well. Perhaps some might help...
It sounds like your fairly experienced though...

I am constantly amazed by how often I win when my last possible play wins.
For example, I've posted in my blog a hand were I had less than 1 ante UTG, yet ended up cashing the tournament.
Not That Exact Scenario, but...
Here's a hand from last year where I'm in the BB with 1BB and 1 ante left, holding 62o

I call it Desperation Equity and I swear it is a real thing.

I wish you a pleasant stay at PokerStrategy.com -- If you have any questions, just post them in the Q&A forum

All the best,
VS

It's just variance. The games are not rigged. The rig part is the RAKE. That's it. The other week my flopped full house lost to a runner runner Royal Flush. The last three days have been a rollercoaster. I've lost 6 buy-ins although it feels like more. I know for the most part, the coolers and set ups, it's just variance. If it wasn't for the odd tilt I'd be four buy ins down and not six. Something I need to work on. Anger management.

Definitely rigged. Yesterday I made runner runner quads versus flopped quads and won. Online poker is so rigged, I am going to write a public complaint letter cos of that happening. Can't happen, something must be wrong!

[/sarcasm]

You don't see anyone saying poker is rigged when they win, funny coincidence?

Hey I know how hard it really is.
But here is a golden advice from someone won around 9k from low stakes.
Always have enough bankroll, more than you need to survive the worst streak of bad cards. You will get worst cards for a long time so know this ahead and deal with it off the tables.

And while you are running like shit, study hard your post flop, turn and river play.
If your play is +ev, then suck it up and play the next game.
If not, post it here and let better players help you.

Poker is a long marathon...

Exactly. This is why I have 200 ABI at the micros while grinding SNGs if I played on my old stakes wich is 7-30$ I could go more aggresive and prob survive with 75-120.

Reaosn why I chose to be so conservative at 0.50-2.50 is because the avg player is terrible so are most of the regs and when people can't even understand pot odds and take ICM into consideration you are flipping most of the time when you are pushing correctly from LP. Ammout of suckouts and bad beats with 80% equity on the bubble or ITM playing for 3rd or higher vs terrible players is insane. An example you are on the stone cold bubble on an FT 7 gets paid you have 9BB in SB he has 11BB you shove K7o wich is correct from the SB because he is an micro stakes player he will call you with any A any pocket pair wich is not correct, now you have a 33% chance of busting because of his wide calling range with ICM. Might be even higher because I loose more then I win with correct plays at theese limits.

I can't use my old strats vs theese players so I had to adapt, I found out to avoid push situations when you have an avg stack when at the higher limits it would be 100% profitible at theese limits its not because they call you with any 2 cards they see cool and you wan't to avoid flip situations when you can in theese games.

Also have to tighten up in EP because they will call you with something like AJo 14BB eff vs EP open.

You're not the only one who has the same problem. I've been playing on pokerstars many years but noticed that their algorithm has really changed two years ago. I started to lose many hands on the river without any reason. When I play on other platforms the things are completely different. Don't know why but I win quite a good percent of river hands playing mobile versions on poker, especially made by Asian casinos.

Years back there was a statement online from a former programmer that worked on PS client. If i remember correctly he explained it like this:

of course these systems is rigged! Just imagine running a completely fair and random system. what would happen?
After a period of time, only sharks would remain on the site. New players would come in, deposit, lose quickly to sharks, and never come back and deposit to that site again. This is not a profitable business model. So the program was written in a way that allows new and bad players to win now and then. Thus all those 1 outters, runner runners, rivers etc...

Originally posted by guerillamonk
Years back there was a statement online from a former programmer that worked on PS client. If i remember correctly he explained it like this:

of course these systems is rigged! Just imagine running a completely fair and random system. what would happen?
After a period of time, only sharks would remain on the site. New players would come in, deposit, lose quickly to sharks, and never come back and deposit to that site again. This is not a profitable business model. So the program was written in a way that allows new and bad players to win now and then. Thus all those 1 outters, runner runners, rivers etc...

Hi guerillamonk,
Welcome to PokerStrategy.com

Yeah, years back we saw those statements.

If you really believe that, why register to a poker forum?

It would be nice if there was evidence.

It would be nicer if the experience of hundreds of thousands of players matched that model.

It would be nicer yet if it was rigged in my favour, but you can't have everything.

Experience shows differently though.

Experience shows that each day, one player is chosen completely at random to run like heaven, and one player is chosen -- again completely at random -- to run like hell, then the system is rigged to make that happen.
(I'm joking of course, but it seems like that

All the best,
VS

Hi thank you

what i was trying to to do with this post is to get people to think about certain aspects of an online poker rooms. If you think they are there, offering their services just so you are able to enjoy online poker, you are surely wrong. Its a business! And what do you do when runnin corporate business? you max out everything for profits, right? And when people say with certainty that, oh no, Pokerstars isnt rigged in any way and calling you silly, they being silly themselves ♦ If someone told you that Wolkswagen is manipulating their emission tests on a global scale, prior of the scandal happening, would you belive they manipulated the numbers just so they would able to continue their profitable business?

Let me explain: i dont think there is a broad conspiracy by the pokerstars to individually attack people and take away their money etc. Im not talking about that...but i am sure that their software is optimized a bit - simply to be able to run a successful long-term business. Thats why i think they actually do customize the game a bit - in the favour of new/noob/sunday players. Without giving them some edge, the business would collapse in a couple of years.

Many sites had a problem with noob players leaving cause too many sharks were waiting at the tables...many publicly announced they would tackle this issue. Now, how exactly they do it, is unknow to me.

Not saying all this is a fact! But its something that is quite logical and very likely.

thanks again for havin me here

the best attitude is one of skepticism.
w34z3l wrote a very nice article on the topic, but it seems that he has removed all public links, so i won't be posting it.

are some rooms rigged? we can't truly know, just hope for the best
of course, there is some incentive to rig games in random ways. it's probably possible to either manipulate things in a way that wouldn't be noticed by regulators, or just outright bribe them but is it actually happening? maybe, maybe not.

i'm still winning pre-rakeback and i feel that i deliver my fair share of suckouts to fish and reg alike, so it's not a big deal... if you don't have enough trust in a room, don't play there.