Wait? What? Uhh.. 
You agree that "wide" is a relative term, no?
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Relative means you always need some kind of starting point as a reference. You can't say something is wide, if you have no reference point. For example if you talk about a "big pile of money" then what are we talking about? How big is big? What is big for you, may not be big for me. If you say, a pile of money as big as a chicken, then I have a better understanding of your definition of "big" because I know how big a chicken (roughly) is.
Same as for the term "wide" and "loose" - those words literally mean nothing if you don't use those terms relative to something.
You can't say something is wide, if you have no reference point.
I understand. But we have some "relative" reference point. Hero says he is loose player. We have some "relative" read here. I mean it's better than unknown player you know? There is diffrence between the two.
. Wider than what?
Yeah we might not be able to answer this question with surgical precision but we have
a little something. Nobody can! Not with this information
Still i dont believe that his cbet is terrible. Terrible is way too strong to be said!
Just admit it. You've been having a rough day 
Maybe if you'd try to construct a range that villain should have and make it a little bit "looser" - for whatever that means - you'll find that AKo is not in such a great shape on this board and villain has very few folding hands vs our c-bet.
you'll find that AKo is not in such a great shape
We cant be sure. It depends on what V defend. It depends with what type of hands is capable of taking the initiative. It depends on a lot of stuff. Still... with 2 overs, big backdoor potential and uncapped range we have a clear cbet even against unknown opponent
This is exactly the problem that I have with your approach. Because "it depends" - you don't even want to think about a reasonable range of hands that villain could defend here. You just play your hand in the dark, with your backdoor potential and pray you pick up equity.
play your hand in the dark
It's you who are trying to construct some "estimate" ranges without info. So tell me why i am wrong and you are right?
Originally posted by NapoleonBonaparte135
play your hand in the dark
It's you who are trying to construct some "estimate" ranges without info. So tell me why i am wrong and you are right?
Yes of course I try to construct an estimate of villains range; the best I can. It's a 3-bet pot, he probably doesn't have Q4o, right? What I'm trying to say is you want to have a general idea to what you're up against in these spots. As far as our conversation is going I only have seen you talk about our own hand. We have backdoor potential, so we c-bet.
It's not about right or wrong, I think we just have different approaches for why we c-bet.
When I c-bet, I want to also think about what I'm betting into. This is what I tried to explain in my first post in this topic. Villain is going to have LOADS of hands that love to continue on this board and very few folds. We actually should check/fold this board a lot with AKo out of position vs a big bet.
Also there are actually not that many turns we can profitably barrel on and end up check/folding turn a lot of time when we c-bet flop. If you barrel on too many turns, you're burning even more EV.
Originally posted by LookAwayNow
Most of the time the value of c-betting when we completely miss comes mainly from folds (fold equity). When we decide on what boards we want to c-bet as a bluff we have to think about villains range. BTN didn't 4-bet pre, so he's more likely to have hands in his range like 77, 88, 99, TT, JJ, 98s, T9s, 87s, 65s, QJs, QTs, KTs, ATs. They completely crush our range. He's almost continuing his entire range here vs our c-bet and is almost never folding.On a board like this we should be checking most of the time. We can check/call vs a small sizing, when he makes it like 20% or 33% and we check/fold to anything larger. When we check/call vs a small sizing, we can lead the turn when an K or A comes. When a spade comes on the turn, we can check/call a small sizing again, but we still fold to anything larger than 33%. On any other turn we just check/fold.
As played we decided to go with a small sizing, see a raise and snapfold. We have to understand that we are going to be crushed here most of the time.
Solver prefers 10BB cbet on flop but checking is not wrong, it's the second best option, and mine is third.
We have backdoor potential, so we c-bet.
You talk like it's nothing. We could keep barrel on A, K, Q, J and every spade turn. It's like half the deck.
Villain is going to have LOADS of hands that love to continue on this board and very few folds. We actually should check/fold this board a lot with AKo out of position vs a big bet.
You cant be sure. See this is what i dont like about your approach. You are making assumptions without data. The only info we have is that he is loose. Witch is a little something. Better to be unknown but it's not enough to start construct ranges.
As i say estmiate could be a dangerious word
Barreling a Q is questionable and barreling a J is just straight up burning money. You go ahead and c-bet into an opponent that has a capped range and smashes a board like this and barrel a turn when he only needs a single 9x hand for a straight and I'll do what I do.
Barreling a Q is questionable and barreling a J is just straight up burning money
And this assumption is based on?
Originally posted by Dr1fter808
Solver prefers 10BB cbet on flop but checking is not wrong, it's the second best option, and mine is third.
Do you know why it's doing this?
Originally posted by LookAwayNow
Originally posted by Dr1fter808
Solver prefers 10BB cbet on flop but checking is not wrong, it's the second best option, and mine is third.Do you know why it's doing this?
It's just a software that computes everything but if you wanna know more specifically it's like this:
1. cbet 10bb = 63%
2. check = 20.4%
3. cbet 6.6bb = 15.3%
the rest is less than 1.3% so it's pretty much insignificant.
Originally posted by Dr1fter808
Originally posted by LookAwayNow
Originally posted by Dr1fter808
Solver prefers 10BB cbet on flop but checking is not wrong, it's the second best option, and mine is third.Do you know why it's doing this?
It's just a software that computes everything but if you wanna know more specifically it's like this:
1. cbet 10bb = 63%
2. check = 20.4%
3. cbet 6.6bb = 15.3%the rest is less than 1.3% so it's pretty much insignificant.
I hadn't tried to use a solver for this hand until now, but what kind of solver are you using? If I solve it into GTOwizard for NL50, we actually check most of our hands. Our bets are more like AJs, ATs, A9s, KJs, KTs, K9s.
Check: 69,5%
Bet 20%: 2,1%
Bet 33%: 8,7%
Bet 50%: 13,8%
Bet 75%: 5,7%
Checking is the most EV-line for almost our entire range. Also it makes the most sense with this hand if you construct a realistic range for villain and think about what hands in his range will continue.
After we check, we can check/call a small sizing and fold to a large one. I feel like I'm kind of repeating myself now; I already explained this in my first post.
Edit:
Fun fact, if we have a combo of AKo with less value removal and more trash removal we actually check 97% of the time:
Originally posted by LookAwayNow
Originally posted by Dr1fter808
Originally posted by LookAwayNow
Originally posted by Dr1fter808
Solver prefers 10BB cbet on flop but checking is not wrong, it's the second best option, and mine is third.Do you know why it's doing this?
It's just a software that computes everything but if you wanna know more specifically it's like this:
1. cbet 10bb = 63%
2. check = 20.4%
3. cbet 6.6bb = 15.3%the rest is less than 1.3% so it's pretty much insignificant.
I hadn't tried to use a solver for this hand until now, but what kind of solver are you using? If I solve it into GTOwizard for NL50, we actually check most of our hands. Our bets are more like AJs, ATs, A9s, KJs, KTs, K9s.
Check: 69,5%
Bet 20%: 2,1%
Bet 33%: 8,7%
Bet 50%: 13,8%
Bet 75%: 5,7%Checking is the most EV-line for almost our entire range. Also it makes the most sense with this hand if you construct a realistic range for villain and think about what hands in his range will continue.
After we check, we can check/call a small sizing and fold to a large one. I feel like I'm kind of repeating myself now; I already explained this in my first post.
Edit:
Fun fact, if we have a combo of AKo with less value removal and more trash removal we actually check 97% of the time:
It's the same GTO Wizard except that I uploaded my hand for analysis and that's what I got.
Interesting, yesterday I spend more than 2 hours in this hand to see for all possible lines the solver wants to take, also to see all possible turn barrels if we do decide to cbet 1/3th on the flop.
Do you mind to share the raw handhistory so I can also load it in?
Originally posted by LookAwayNow
Interesting, yesterday I spend more than 2 hours in this hand to see for all possible lines the solver wants to take, also to see all possible turn barrels if we do decide to cbet 1/3th on the flop.Do you mind to share the raw handhistory so I can also load it in?
Sure, this here below is how I upload it into my GTO Wizard.
Poker Hand #RC1415896468: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.1) - 2023/03/20 09:57:04
Table 'RushAndCash24691728' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: a0a576be ($8.61 in chips)
Seat 2: Hero ($10 in chips)
Seat 3: e3349366 ($24.64 in chips)
Seat 4: c5ec61a0 ($10.85 in chips)
Seat 5: 1b0c510 ($10.05 in chips)
Seat 6: c4275a63 ($11.4 in chips)
Hero: posts small blind $0.05
e3349366: posts big blind $0.1
HOLE CARDS
Dealt to a0a576be
Dealt to Hero [Ks Ad]
Dealt to e3349366
Dealt to c5ec61a0
Dealt to 1b0c510
Dealt to c4275a63
c5ec61a0: folds
1b0c510: folds
c4275a63: folds
a0a576be: raises $0.15 to $0.25
Hero: raises $0.86 to $1.11
e3349366: folds
a0a576be: calls $0.86
FLOP [Ts 8h 7s]
Hero: bets $0.65
a0a576be: raises $1.1 to $1.75
Hero: calls $1.1
TURN [Ts 8h 7s] [4h]
Hero: checks
a0a576be: checks
RIVER [Ts 8h 7s 4h] [7d]
Hero: checks
a0a576be: checks
Hero: shows [Ks Ad] (Pair of Sevens)
a0a576be: shows [As 9s] (Pair of Sevens)
SHOWDOWN
Hero collected $5.39 from pot
SUMMARY
Total pot $5.82 | Rake $0.28 | Jackpot $0.15 | Bingo $0 | Fortune $0
Board [Ts 8h 7s 4h 7d]
Seat 1: a0a576be (button) showed [As 9s] and lost with Pair of Sevens
Seat 2: Hero (small blind) showed [Ks Ad] and won ($5.39) with Pair of Sevens
Seat 3: e3349366 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: c5ec61a0 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: 1b0c510 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: c4275a63 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Edit: I added the image of analysis