PLO25 8765ts reasonable triple barrel line?

Don't pay the nit, don't bluff the fish. 2 most basic rules in poker.

So if he's bad your play in general is very bad because fish don't think about what you have or even ranges in general, they look at their own card and if they like it they usually just want to see a showdown.

If it's a weak-tight/fit-fold player who defends flops and then gaps the turn, the play is not as bad but still somewhat bad. His turn call would mean he has it this time (either a hand he'll continue most river runouts like set, 2pair+flushdraw/straightblocker or nutstraight). Your bluffs aims at the minority of his range having mediocre SDV usually plus the discounted busted FD's, this means it will not be profitable if he's calling more than 33% of his range. Furthermore you don't want to bluff 100% of your hands without SDV as you'd bluffing too much then, having a flushdraw and having no blocker is not ideal. When you're having no broadways cards, usually the opponent will have them. The risk of a bad player calling with just 2pair is higher than a regular who understands you rep and can have the straight relatively often.

Vs. Fish/Station: The way to outplay someone who can't fold is to not bluff him

Vs. WT/FF: Against someone who overfolds one street we bet that street more often but then give up the next street.

You got the call frequency way wrong there or maybe misphrased it. If villain calls less than 66% I will make profit as my check EV is very close to zero. I invest 5 to win 10 so need to go through 1/3 of the time.

I think ton of people fold more than 1/3 of their range. Especially if you come to river with way too wide range in first place. Hearts in my hand is not ideal but they are also fairly low ones which is not as bad.

Yes I misphrased, I wanted to say if he folds less than 66%. This ofc depends on his on turn-calling range which is a street many people can tighten up considerably. Not fishes/bad players necessarily, but they also keep calling too much on rivers. Your description of his player type kinda does not match (my) experience of turn/river tendencies. If he's a fish, he'll unlikely suddenly fold more than 1/3 of his range without texture shift against a medium-sized bet. Fishes do not study solver, this means they have no funneling down with their ranges street by street. Bad means sticky and emotional attachment to the hand. Hero's story of having a straight ott does not change otr. Even bad players understand you are not repping bottom2pair anymore. So his thought will be (rightfully so), "either he has a straight or he has nothing" and "if he has nothing my bluffcatcher will win".

Furthermore if you really want to bet despite all I have said, it makes sense to pot the river to make it harder for him to actually call the hand he'd like to see a showdown with. If he had a busted side-draw he'll fold no matter what and with nuts he is not folding ever so the end-result would be the same with those inelastic subcategories, we would aim for the medium-strength SDV hands, primarily (top-paired)2pairs to find a fold. Your range is polarized (nutstraight or bluff). Not betting big is fairly suboptimum meta stuff he probably does not even understand. He sees the smallish/cheap bet and is more likely to call.

I can ask you one more time what you mean with "bad". If he is extremely bad, when passive he is basically a callingstation and will just call you down thus no fold-equity. If he is calling too much early but overfolds at one street in particular, he is what I call "weak-tight" or "fit-fold". Against such a player his turn-range could be stronger than you might have assessed. This more experienced player knows you already rep the straight on the turn and he won't call very loose planning to just fold any river whatsoever, his flushdraw portion that'd justify that resulting from bdfd's is comparably not that big (you also block it). Against this type I'd quote:

Loose players can have it more often than you think:

...

and

Don't Blow Yourself up Against Overfolding Players:

...

Player types where bluffing river wide generally makes sense to me:

A (weak) loose-aggressive regular who's exploiting other regulars river inhibition-thresholds by defending turns wide and overfolds to river bets (over-realization strategy).

Another tight-aggressive regular who is in a counter/-adjustment phase where Hero's testing out the skill-level and willingness to increase variance ventilating up a new street.

You need players capable of folding to bluff them. Since a nits' range is superstrong when flop gets called besides fit-fold players this leaves lags and tags. For the latter you'd need to know how much % you're bluffing though when turning your specific combo into a bluff, otherwise it's kinda speculative. It's hard for me to recognize, what specific characteristics a 8♥:7♣:6♥:5♠: combo holds for you to say: I want to add this unfiltered air into my bluff-range so I have an x% amount of bluff-freq. First you should check out how many :Kx:-nutblockers without SDV you have there and if the amount of it is sufficient to fill up your desired bluff-portion. Sometimes it's possible to have a higher freq. of a single than :8x:, :7x:, and combined. Secondly you want to add hands that unblock the flushdraw, as it is part of villains turn-calling range with a more weak SDV in general. To fine-tune additional hands, you'd watch out for key cards and what frequency they make up, Perhaps solver still prefers using certain pair-blockers to bluff here for whatever reasons, idk. I would not recommend adding random bluffs when there's no hint that the situation is auto-profit or at least somewhat likely to be profitable.

PS: I removed the quotes since the have a copyright. FOr more info check out "How to beat the Fish" written by Cory Mikesell.

Originally posted by Mascherano95
FOr more info check out "How to beat the Fish" written by Cory Mikesell.

Could you please write a short review?

Originally posted by blinderGeiger

Originally posted by Mascherano95
FOr more info check out "How to beat the Fish" written by Cory Mikesell.

Could you please write a short review?

Not necessary, It's quite compact

I didnt want you to spoil it.
Did you like it / is it worth 97$?

Originally posted by blinderGeiger
I didnt want you to spoil it.
Did you like it / is it worth 97$?

PM

Originally posted by Mascherano95
Yes I misphrased, I wanted to say if he folds less than 66%. This ofc depends on his on turn-calling range which is a street many people can tighten up considerably. Not fishes/bad players necessarily, but they also keep calling too much on rivers. Your description of his player type kinda does not match (my) experience of turn/river tendencies. If he's a fish, he'll unlikely suddenly fold more than 1/3 of his range without texture shift against a medium-sized bet. Fishes do not study solver, this means they have no funneling down with their ranges street by street. Bad means sticky and emotional attachment to the hand. Hero's story of having a straight ott does not change otr. Even bad players understand you are not repping bottom2pair anymore. So his thought will be (rightfully so), "either he has a straight or he has nothing" and "if he has nothing my bluffcatcher will win".

Furthermore if you really want to bet despite all I have said, it makes sense to pot the river to make it harder for him to actually call the hand he'd like to see a showdown with. If he had a busted side-draw he'll fold no matter what and with nuts he is not folding ever so the end-result would be the same with those inelastic subcategories, we would aim for the medium-strength SDV hands, primarily (top-paired)2pairs to find a fold. Your range is polarized (nutstraight or bluff). Not betting big is fairly suboptimum meta stuff he probably does not even understand. He sees the smallish/cheap bet and is more likely to call.

I can ask you one more time what you mean with "bad". If he is extremely bad, when passive he is basically a callingstation and will just call you down thus no fold-equity. If he is calling too much early but overfolds at one street in particular, he is what I call "weak-tight" or "fit-fold". Against such a player his turn-range could be stronger than you might have assessed. This more experienced player knows you already rep the straight on the turn and he won't call very loose planning to just fold any river whatsoever, his flushdraw portion that'd justify that resulting from bdfd's is comparably not that big (you also block it). Against this type I'd quote:

Well in this case it was about playing way too wide pre and as I said sticky on flop. But had not seen any loose call downs vs multiple barrels so no call machine reads. Anyway I would have given up on blank river. But imo this is actually quite a big shift on river with most Kx bluffs making straight (as we prefer to have T blocker or gs) plus lot of our value range has K or J in it as well on turn. E.g. sets and top two type. I think pool tends to be heavily underbluffing this river spot and personally I tend to have really hard time to get value vs most players in this spot when having it. Of course when we have straight we block it from opponent but its pretty rare to see two pairs or sets calling even when I tend to downsize to 1/3 to 1/2 pot sizing. Kind of issue with pot betting anyway is that it makes getting value really tough and price is lot worse (for bluffing). Even if not caring about using same sizing for bluff and value. Even for recreational its not that hard to recognize having nut straight here is pretty common. Of course there are some call happy fellows but as said no call machine assumption on this guy.

PS: As mentioned above our range is quite bit wider than just straight for value on turn. Which is also reason I tend to use 3/4 pot and not full pot sizing.

Well in this case it was about playing way too wide pre and as I said sticky on flop. But had not seen any loose call downs vs multiple barrels so no call machine reads.

Yes I have many of those at my tables, they are somewhat passive/fit-fold/weak-tight regulars. They usually have quite a gap between VPIP and PFR. The handstrengths they use to call you down can vary at the beginning, some are really tight close to nutpeddlers, others will call you down frequently (but usually adapt at some point becoming more tight against you specifically). They can do stuff like semi-bluffing or blocker-blulffing with delayed, probes etc. but usually won't invest more than 2 streets without a really strong hand. So you'd have to push them out of their comfort-zone regularly by barreling loose and big and also 3betting them more (as they will head to flop too lose without sufficient fold-to-3bet and also having no balanced 4bet ranges- usually AAxx only). Good thing is their loose VPIP makes them playing too many small pots oop. Common traits are they don't check-raise, they don't 3bet (and call too much vs 3bets) and they are very handstrength orientated but they do have positional awareness. As they funnel down their ranges in a somewhat solid way it is hard to get lots of value out of them with value-bets. What I do is, they usually have a gap somewhere either turn or river and then pound that street but give up afterwards. To identify that you need a HUD or otherwise observe their handhistories. Usually they are ridiculously tight postflop when they perceive you as a regular aswell, their play in 3BP often has flaws aswell but those are hard to identify without HUD imo. They also massively overfold static textures against smallish sizings.

They are the online-version of life-regulars who play everyday, have a basic thought process like odds, position and player tendencies, they have some handreading capabilities. So they make money against fish and prevent losing it against other regs by tightening up in an extreme way postflop. Some of them over-adapt when you go maniac style which can create opportunities, most don't.

I'd bet 1/3 on the river. It is unlikely that villain doesn't find a fold 25% of the time. And that size usually put them in a levellingwar in their heads. Some might even consider 1/3 looking stronger here than 1/2.
Most important: this is a great spot to catch a read. If villain snapcalls you have a good indication that he doesn't understand relative hand strength well. So, reduce bluffing, but valuebet lighter. If he snapraises or tankraises you have an indication for a timing tell on what he is doing with nuts. If he snapfolds, he probably reads the small bet as strong and you can bluff him with that more often. All of those are indications only and need to be confirmed, but they can be extremly valuable. If he tankfolds he was probably thinking of looking you up with a bluffcatcher. He'll be a bit more prone to call a same sized bet the next time as he was suspicious here.