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[Closed] 2/4 again, 3 hands

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Confeti
Joined: 02.04.2008

Hi again english comunity!. 1st thanks for all your replys in my others threads :) .

I was resting a couple of days after having the worst sesion of my life: -923 USD in 2.8k hands (6,5 hs playing) really SICK sesion. I almost fainted front the computer, I just can't believe what I saw...

So I bought the HM, and I reread some articles to improve my game. Let's see what happens.

Today I'm back to the tables (only 750 hands) and I have some hands to evaluate:

(you don't need to evaluate all them, just the hands with mistakes)

1) NH?

Because I think the best line here was call flop, raise turn. At least 1 of them going to bet turn

SB: regular 29/20/1.5/33 CBflop:86 Cbet turn:82 3bet SB:13%

UTG+1: 43/32/1.8/40

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
Limit Holdem $2(BB) Replayer
SB ($68.75)
BB ($200)
UTG ($85.25)
UTG+1 ($126)
CO ($118)
Hero ($209)

Dealt to Hero 9♥ 9♠

fold, UTG+1 raises to $4, fold, Hero raises to $6, SB raises to $8, fold, UTG+1 calls $4, Hero calls $2

FLOP ($26) 7♦ 9♣ J♥

SB bets $2, UTG+1 calls $2, Hero raises to $4, SB calls $2, UTG+1 calls $2

TURN ($38) 7♦ 9♣ J♥ T♠

SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $4, SB calls $4, UTG+1 calls $4

RIVER ($50) 7♦ 9♣ J♥ T♠ 8♠

SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

UTG+1 shows K♥ J♣
(Pre 11%, Flop 4.1%, Turn 12.7%)

Hero shows 9♥ 9♠
(Pre 18%, Flop 86.3%, Turn 79.4%)

SB shows A♣ A♥
(Pre 71%, Flop 9.6%, Turn 7.9%)

UTG+1 wins $15.83
Hero wins $15.83
SB wins $15.84

2) Villain: 43/32/1.8/40 (the same than the other hand)

AF flop/turn/river: 1.5/1.7/3.5
Agg freq river: 47%

I don't know if he will bet any PP, T9, busted backdoor FD here. C/C river?

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
Limit Holdem $2(BB) Replayer
Hero ($189)
BB ($87.50)
UTG ($81)
CO ($108)
BTN ($105)

Dealt to Hero T♣ T♠

fold, CO raises to $4, fold, Hero raises to $6, fold, CO calls $2

FLOP ($14) J♣ K♥ J♦

Hero bets $2, CO calls $2

TURN ($18) J♣ K♥ J♦ 4♣

Hero bets $4, CO calls $4

RIVER ($26) J♣ K♥ J♦ 4♣ A♠

Hero checks, CO bets $4, Hero??

3)

Limpers: 35/10/1.1/38 and 39/19/0.7/61

I always call preflop in these spots with 66-44 (I raise with 77+). Should I raise?

Postflop, I think is well played (or should I call flop to raise turn?)

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
Limit Holdem $2(BB) Replayer
SB ($143)
BB ($13.79)
UTG ($50)
UTG+1 ($75.38)
Hero ($89.50)
BTN ($199)

Dealt to Hero 6♦ 6♠

UTG checks, UTG+1 calls $2, Hero calls $2, fold, SB calls $1, BB checks

FLOP ($10) 2♣ 6♣ 8♦

SB checks, BB bets $2, UTG calls $2, UTG+1 calls $2, Hero raises to $4, SB folds, BB calls $2, UTG calls $2, UTG+1 calls $2

TURN ($26) 2♣ 6♣ 8♦ 8♥

BB bets $4, UTG calls $4, UTG+1 calls $4, Hero raises to $8, BB calls $3.79 (AI), UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $4

RIVER ($53.79) 2♣ 6♣ 8♦ 8♥ J♣

UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $4, UTG+1 calls $4

UTG+1 shows 3♣ Q♣
(Pre 32%, Flop 28.0%, Turn 0.0%)

Hero shows 6♦ 6♠
(Pre 47%, Flop 62.9%, Turn 2.4%)

BB shows 2♦ 8♠
(Pre 21%, Flop 9.1%, Turn 97.6%)

Hero wins $7.92
BB wins $50.87

BB is a lucky boy :rolleyes:


17 replies
DukeFreedom
Joined: 07.04.2008

1) I don't like the slowplaying. Especially with the cap preflop, I think you'll get far more value by simply 3-betting flop.

2) I don't know. I think the big question here is if he'll bet lower pocket pairs there. If so, you should certainly call. Compared to his strange passive play on the other hand I think I would fold this time though.

3) Preflop it's really a call for me. I don't think you can get them to fold many hands, and so I'd play 66 mostly for set value here. Postflop standard, ofcourse.


Hi Confeti,

I demand a video.

Do you have a stop limit? Maybe you start tilting without noticing after a while. I think 50 BB is no enough as this is a normal swing. But 100 BB won't happen that often so maybe that could be a stop limit.

1) I like it. There's no reason to wait for the turn here. The board is ugly and you can trap the 3rd guy as well. A continuationbet won't be as often as usual as if he has no pair he will check/call almost always.

2) Hmm he's pretty loose so he should have a lot pocketpairs in his range and I think these kind of opponents bet with that as a bluff often enough to justify a crying call. Against a more reasonable opponent I like check/fold the most as a draw got there and any ace beats you as well. They also check behind with a hand that has some showdownvalue.

3) Yes raise this. 66 is way too strong to just go by set value. Weaker pocketpairs that are not in the ORC can be called but even then I prefer a raise at a SH table as it's almost always worth it.

Postflop is good.


opabumbi
Joined: 07.01.2007

1) nh

2) cf river. all you beat is something like QT which is pretty unlikely given the fact that you block 2 T. i dont see villain turning a pocketpair into a bluff

3) raise pre, postflop good

btw: you shuld have a stop-loss-limit
almost 1k at 2/4 is a lot and i dont see how u could keep playing your a game


Originally posted by opabumbi
2) cf river. all you beat is something like QT which is pretty unlikely given the fact that you block 2 T. i dont see villain turning a pocketpair into a bluff

QT has the straight. ;)

I agree that normally he won't bluff but isn't it possible that this LAG if he called down a pocketpair smells weakness and tries that bluff once every 7,5 times?

EDIT: How come that you post here? Whatever. Nice to have another good player around with which I can argue about the lines.


opabumbi
Joined: 07.01.2007

Originally posted by ciRith

2) cf river. all you beat is something like QT which is pretty unlikely given the fact that you block 2 T. i dont see villain turning a pocketpair into a bluff

QT has the straight. ;)

im a fish ;(

Originally posted by ciRith
I agree that normally he won't bluff but isn't it possible that this LAG if he called down a pocketpair smells weakness and tries that bluff once every 7,5 times?

i dont think so, you rarely see this, but its hard to say without knowing him
the ace is a bad card, he has a lot of acehighs as well in his range

Originally posted by ciRith

EDIT: How come that you post here? Whatever. Nice to have another good player around with which I can argue about the lines.

just found out there is an english handevaluationforum and i was bored ;)


Board: Jc Kh Jd 4c As
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 14.400% 14.40% 00.00% 18 0.00 { TcTs }
Hand 1: 85.600% 85.60% 00.00% 107 0.00 { QQ, 55, 33-22, ATs-A2s, QTs, ATo-A2o }

Here are all A-high hands (without the ones he would cap) and 3 pocketpairs (the worst possible) in his range. His river AF and AFq is pretty high.
If he is betting less pocketpairs (-55) then it's a fold.

Still folding here? :/ (Need to convince you. *g*)


Confeti
Joined: 02.04.2008

I think also T9 is in his range, so a c/c river is more justified.


kevvu
Joined: 11.05.2008

Hi
125 big bet swings are not normal in 2/4 ?
I am getting used with these ;)
And 1k down in 6k hands in 2/4 is much ? I thought it is normal :f_cool:
At least after that big fall i am getting back breakeven in 2/4 :)


opabumbi
Joined: 07.01.2007

Originally posted by Confeti
I think also T9 is in his range, so a c/c river is more justified.

dangerous thinking!!!
a cc is definately not more than justified, it is debatable depending on what kind of a player villain is.
playing cc here as a default play is imho a clear mistake

i dont see villain calling all those small pockets, at least not every time and he is definately not betting them all

it could be ok to cc, but i'd still fold


Well it's not a default. It's just against this opponent who has a pretty high wts and a very high river aggression whch may mean that he bets too much here to make it a profitable call.

If you don't see him calling the low pocketpairs you also have to reduce the A-high hands without a draw as they have almost the same value and are sometimes even worse as if he calling he is dong it mainly aganst our A-high which he beat with a pair but not with a bad A-high.

@kevvu: 1000$ are 250 BB and that is a lot in 1 session (not a lot for a downswing of course).


Originally posted by ciRith
Hi Confeti,

I demand a video.

Do you have a stop limit? Maybe you start tilting without noticing after a while. I think 50 BB is no enough as this is a normal swing. But 100 BB won't happen that often so maybe that could be a stop limit.

Just a quick question.

Is it perhaps possible you beat this limit something like 2 years ago and haven't looked at the level of play at 2/4SH today ?
Beating it outright (before rakeback) with that huge rake of 3 BB/100 vs mostly competent TAG and sLAG opponents is something only 10 % can say today, if even that.
So 100 BB swings seem more than common in my very humble opinion.


DukeFreedom
Joined: 07.04.2008

Just posting to agree with SonicXT here. 100BB swings actually happen quite frequently...

Edit: And I want to add that I notice an extraordinary difference in game level between 1/2 and 2/4 on party poker. On 1/2 there are often 2 fishes at the table, whereas on 2/4 you are lucky if you find a table with 1 fish, instead of 5 TAGs / (s)LAGs.


Originally posted by DukeFreedom
Just posting to agree with SonicXT here. 100BB swings actually happen quite frequently...

Edit: And I want to add that I notice an extraordinary difference in game level between 1/2 and 2/4 on party poker. On 1/2 there are often 2 fishes at the table, whereas on 2/4 you are lucky if you find a table with 1 fish, instead of 5 TAGs / (s)LAGs.

Well that's bad table selection....

And no I still play thiese limits. Not very long sessions and not on bad tables.
I know that 100 BB swing are normal but in one session? (Well that highly depends on how long you play of course. For me it's max 1000 hands.)


DukeFreedom
Joined: 07.04.2008

Bad table selection? Well party poker offers nothing else. Even cornholio noted this in one of his newer vids where he played $2/4 at party poker. Oh well, I'm moving to another poker room for that reason soon anyway, and it would be very nice if FT or PS do offer room for good table selection, as you seem to suggest.

As for BB swings, obviously you should only compare them over the same number of hands. A "session" is just an arbitrary notion. After all, your whole poker career is one big session.

My typical day sessions are ~2000-2500 hands and 100BB swings happen quite frequently then. 50BB swings aren't even worth noticing.


True. I jut don't play bad tables (my winrate is higher but I don't get a lot hands in). In the end you have to decide whether to play more but marginal or less and more profitable.

Swing are higher the lower the winrate so if you play in marginal games you have bigger swings. I can't handle them very well (hard to admit :/) so I often stop at -100 BB (well losing 600-1000$ is still a lot money).

Maybe that is the case for Confeti as well so I thought I suggest him a stop limit. I mean 250 BB is definitely not normal and if he is tilting without noticing it may destroy his winrate (and BR).

I commented quite a few videos already and pretty often the game gets worse in the end. I don't think the tilt but talking and playing is pretty exhausting and may result in bad play. The same may happen in a very long session.


DukeFreedom
Joined: 07.04.2008

Well I refuse to be on tables with only TAGs / (s)LAGs as I don't think I can beat the rake then, but sadly this leads to a lot of table switching at party. So far 1 obvious fish at the table does not seem enough for me to beat the limit yet either though.

I must say my personal worst day has been something around -$500 with a peak -$600 intra-session on $2/4 and I do agree that it's best to have some stop-limit somewhere, because such a big downswing is quite likely to effect your game somehow. I don't have a hard-coded max myself, but if I pass -100BB I do force myself to ask if I can still honestly say that I play well.


Originally posted by DukeFreedom
Well I refuse to be on tables with only TAGs / (s)LAGs as I don't think I can beat the rake then, but sadly this leads to a lot of table switching at party. So far 1 obvious fish at the table does not seem enough for me to beat the limit yet either though.

I must say my personal worst day has been something around -$500 with a peak -$600 intra-session on $2/4 and I do agree that it's best to have some stop-limit somewhere, because such a big downswing is quite likely to effect your game somehow. I don't have a hard-coded max myself, but if I pass -100BB I do force myself to ask if I can still honestly say that I play well.

That's how I do it myself. Now why didn't I wrote that earlier. *lol*

I play 3 limits at the moment (well I don't play at the moment as I don't find time) and I need at least 1 50 VPIP or 2 35-40 VPIP opponents to play the table.
Pretty hard to find but not impossible when playing 2/4$ up to 5/10$ (and 10/20$ if the table is very good).